880EX recording tips anyone?

PaLiC

New member
Hey guys,

i finally got my new 880EX... the digital world has finally arrived... but jumping from my simple Tascam 4 track .. i'm a bit overwelmed...

does anyone have any tips to maximize the recording settings for the VS880EX? do you record everything completely dry... do you use the microphone simulators?

to let you know i have a large diaphram condenser mic (audio technica 4033a) and a Joe Meek Compressor/Preamp/Enhancer VC3 Pro....

any basic suggestions would be great!

thanks

tony cho
PaLiC Music
http://www.mp3.com/palicmusic
 
I've had my 880EX for 2 years and IMHO the single greatest improvement you can realize is to get your hands on a good A/D converter like a Flying Cow or similar and plug your mic/pre into it and go in through the S/PDIF input on the VS.As far as the learning curve goes,try this: http://www.vsplanet.com
 
Hey Tony...

I did the same thing about 2 years ago and believe me, all the time it takes to get past the learing curve is well worth the effort... the quality and the flexibility and time it will ultimately save you is immeasurable... as far as the website Ray posted, give it a few days to come back up as it tends to have problems at the end of the month... I have learned an enormous amount at that site which is dedicated to nothing but the VS systems... If you want to hear some songs I've recorded on my 880EX, check out my site... some of them I even imported from my old 4 track tapes (i.e. The West Texas Wind)... I did this with 4 RCA to phone jack cables... be real carefull to tweak the input signal just right... as far as the A/D converter Ray mentioned, I use the one that is inboard on the 880EX and it works fine for me, listen and decide for yourself...

You have 2 months of learning ahead of you before you get really good on the 880EX... Good Luck

Ben
http://www.mp3.com/benwalter
 
You can record tracks dry,with just enough reverb to make vocals inspiring....you don't have to print it.I always print the guitar sounds,though,because I spend so much time programming them.As far as big 'verbs and delays,too much of it (especially digital) can make a song seem bloated and
unrealistic.Record as dry as possible,then experiment.
 
Try to come up with a simple game plan prior to recording your tracks. Following is a standard method I use:

I record all instruments on my songs as I am the only one in the studio so I follow this format: record main guitar on track 1, run main guitar through headphones and lay drum tracks as snare on track 2, kick on track 3, area mic on track 4. Run guitar and drum tracks through headphones and record bass guitar on track 5.

I finalize, and I mean finalize, the drum and bass sound then bounce them down to track 6.

From there I put the headphones back on and lay my lead guitar track, if any, on track 2 and if the song calls for it, I will lay additional guitar on track 3 and track 4 (such as harmony leads or melody effects and so on).

At this point I finalize all guitar tracks, and bounce them to track 5.

I put the headphones back on and lay my main vocals on track 1. If the song calls for it, I will lay my chorus on track 2 so that I can hold or carry the final notes from main vocal sections and blend them into each chorus. On track 3 I will add background or harmony vocals.

With the empty track 4 you can add another vocal effect or guitar sound or whatever.

From there I will bounce track 6 (all drums and bass) to track 7 and bounce track 5 (all guitar) and tracks 1 - 4 (vocals) to track 8 to complete a two-track stereo mix.

This all sounds pretty easy but it takes a little time to get use to.

Some things to remember:
1. Finalize the sound you want prior to bouncing tracks
2. Bounce tracks that tend to have similar sonic qualities (drums and bass) to the same destination track.
3. DO NOT optimize your song until you are COMPLETELY satisified with what you got. Those undo and redos come in handy!
4. Starting right out with mic placement, make sure you are satisfied prior to recording. Each step after that, do the same. Keep in mind the age old phrase, measure twice and cut once!

To tie this together, here's an example of one of my mistakes:

I bounced down the main guitar and three drum tracks to track 7 and then optimized the song (thinking I had the sound that I wanted) thus eliminating my undos.

When I played it back the kick drum seemed to have disappeared. Well, I couldn't quite adjust the EQ to possibly bring out the kick a little more because my main guitar was also on the same track thus screwing up the overall sound of the main guitar. Maybe if I had boosted the kick drum to above what I thought I needed it would have sounded good in the end but...

I could not undo the bounce because I had, in my haste to complete this part of the soung, used the optimize feature to create more space on the hard drive for other tracks.

Guess what? I violated all four of the items I listed above and I am STILL learning.

Hope this helps.
 
Hey Tony. I would like to add some info here to maybe help you a little. First of all, if you don't need to bounce tracks, don't do it. There is a slight degradation of sound by doing this. Plus, the last post stated, once you bounce tracks together, it is pretty hard to fix. One thing I can throw out at you is if you are going to bounce tracks, I would recommend that you utilize your virtual tracks to store the tracks being bounced from. I did this once by recording some background vocals on other virual tracks. I then used V track 1 to record the other tracks I needed. By doing this, you still have the other tracks available should you need to remix the bounced tracks.

Another suggestion I will make kind of goes against what fanbagglia said about bouncing the drums. I would recommend bouncing to 2 stereo linked tracks to keep your stereo field.

As far as recording dry, I guess it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish and whether or not you can do it all with dry mixes.

Other than that, Have lots of fun, and by all means experiment.

Happy Recording
Joe
 
JC,

As far as a 2 track stereo, isn't tracks 7 and 8 auto linked for stereo? Did I miss something?

Do you have to bounce to track 7 and 8 at the same time? As I mentioned in a previous post I bounced guitar and drums to track 7 and then could not bounce anything else to track 8.

Any advice would be helpful!

Thanks!
 
Well you see, I have one of the first vs-880's. It is not the EX. With the EX, it could very well be linked automatically. Mine is not. As a matter of fact, none of the channels are auto linked. I have to do it manually. Guess I need to upgrade huh.

Actually when I upgrade I think I am going to go the computer route, but right now, that is just a dream.

Sorry if I caused any confusion here.

As always, Happy Recording

Joe
 
Hey JC,

Also a good point about using the virtual tracks. That's a great feature on the Roland.

I have noticed that the more virtual tracks stored in combination with a mult-track recording takes up a lot of space. Do you generally try to complete a project and then wipe it clean? I always seem to be fighting for space!
 
You're right about the space. I usally keep several projects on my system until I need space. I then have to decide what I should take off. I use a 100mb zip disk to copy the stuff off to. One thing that I have to be careful with when having a large song is that I need to make sure I can copy it off to my Zip.

One dis-advantage that I have over newer models is that I only have a 500mb drive. Bummer. But I get along with it.
 
Confusion is my middle name now since I started doing my own recordings!

One thing that I feel since starting to post out here (anywhere for that matter) is that I would be steering someone in the wrong direction with my suggestions!

Hopefully this won't happen. Good thing that there's others out here to help!

Hearing your suggestions makes me want to go back and run through all my documentation for the Roland!

Constantly learning!
 
JC,

Do you usually record at 44.1? I haven't tried to do much with this. I am wondering if it would save that much space if you went to say 32khz and if you would hear that much of a quality loss.

I mostly am recording personal demos and such so I haven't really cared. My stuff up to this point hasn't had to have matering and the cool finishing touches.

Have you started a song from start to finish on the Roland and then submitted it to anyone looking for jingles, instrumental or broadcast stuff?
 
Hey man, the manuals kind of suck to me and are quite confusing. But one thing that you can get from it is all it's capablilities.

The whole purpose for this BBS is for us to gather and learn. Thats why I love this place. I have learned so much more here in the past couple of monthes than I have in the past few years of my fumbling with my recording.

Keep the VU meters bouncin' and the monitors cranked.

Joe
 
In answer to your last post, I usually use the 44.1. I have on occasion used the 48 and even used the 32 when I was recording a live gig to conserve on space. However, i would not use the 32 for recording a song. I can definitly hear the difference. It is not worth cutting back on sound quality to conserve on space.

And as far as demo's, I have not gotten that far yet. I have quite a few songs recorded but thats as far as I've gotten. I plan on getting some of my stuff copyrighted here in the near future. Once that is done, I can then start promoting it.
 
44.1 vs. the alternatives

Re the sampling rate,I feel that in the case of machines like the VS series it's best to start off in 44.1khz 'cause any extra high end you might get from using 48 would probably get lost when you go through your mixdown deck's sample rate converters.Like it or not,44.1 is still the standard for CD's so starting out that way on the VS means you can go all the way to CD w/o changing it.32khz is good for scratch pad type work,or if you want/need a lo fi sound,but there again,you'll have to sample rate convert to get it on a CD.
 
As virtaul stated, the 32k sample is good for scratch work. The only bad part to that, if all of a sudden you get a great take on a track, you can convert the song to a higher sampling rate. You have to start over. BUMMER.
 
A few of my experiences

I have been using my VS-880-EX for about a year. The learning curve was a real bitch. I had been using a four track Tascam for fifteen years and still it took me a week just to record my first two tracks on the VS880-EX. The first couple of months were like pulling teeth. Even though by now most functions are almost automatic to me, I still have to break out the books once in a while when I try something new, or have a mind fart. However, the initial struggle was worth it. The possibilities offered by the VS880-EX are limitless. I am continually amazed at what even a hacker like me can accomplish with it.

My process:

I always begin by laying down stereo drum tracks on # 5 & 6 and a scratch guitar rhythm track on #1, which may, or may not be replaced. I usually use the “dual compression” on the drums, and sometimes one of the pre set EQs. I am running my guitars through a POD 2.0, so I usually don’t use the Roland effects for guitar (although the Roland’s are excellent – the POD is easer to set up).

Next I lay down a bass track on # 2. I use the onboard “Dual Compressor” and either “Bass 1” or “Bass 2” for EQ, but I still run the bass through the POD so I can dial in just the sound I want. Then I lay down guitar leads on tracks # 3 and 4, or guitar on one and keyboard or sax on the other, etc. I save 7 & 8 for stereo vocals, which I usually do last. I use a Rode NT1 mic. The onboard VS880-EX pre amps seem to be just fine. I tried a tube pre amp and didn’t notice any improvement. I also use a Digitec Vocal Work Station for delay, reverb, harmony, etc. (My saxes also sound great through the vocal workstation.) I always use the onboard “Dual Compressor” and often “Rock Male” EQ for vocals.

If I want more instrumentation, rather than bounce tracks, I use my Roland DR 5 drum machine and program it’s keyboard and bass tracks, sync it up to the VS880-EX via midi. It’s like having five extra tracks. You don’t have to record the output from the DR 5 until mix down, and can still control level and pan whenever needed.

I do not like to bounce (combine) tracks, as you no longer have control of EQ, Level, pan, etc. of each instrument. I play with my final mix for hours before I even get close to being satisfied. If I had bounced the tracks, I’d be screwed. The only exception is vocals, which I have been known to mix when I need a lot of background voices, etc. However, I always keep the two original vocal tracks available for reuse if needed. I also sometimes add another dual guitar lead on the vocal tracks, where there is a blank 8, or 16 bar (or whatever) space left for instrumental “breaks”. You can punch in the lead, or do it on a V track and copy it to the right location. I usually have several different mixes with different pans and levels saved to the “Scenes.” I use the onboard “Mastering” effects when I mix down (software 2.0 and above) – “rock band” and “Bright Mix” seems to do well, but there are many to chose from. I am mixing down to analog tape now, but will soon be mixing to CD. More on that later.

Do not allow lack of disk space limit you. Use all 128 V tracks if you need to. That’s what they are there fore. Of course, I have never used more than twenty or thirty and do “Cut” track I know I will never use, then “Optimize”. The space problem is easy to solve. I just got an ORB drive (se my post) and now have infinite space.

Another little trick. Try using the “Very Pitch” (speed control) to slow down the playback while you lay down a guitar lead (39.something is ½ step lower in pitch) – you can even slow down and record at 1 or 1 ½ pitches to really sound fast on playback. Then play back at the normal 44.10. You will be amazed at how much better the lead sounds. Also, see what you’re mix sounds like played back at 46.79, which is ½ step higher and a little faster then the original 44.10. I often record my final mix played back at 46.79. You can find the exact pitch of a speed (sample rate) setting by recording a known tone (E, for instance) at 44.10, then slowing it down or speeding it up and finding the exact speed for +/- ½, 1, 1 ½, 2 pitches, using a guitar tuner. The tuner will tell you when you are right on pitch. I made a little chart (which I do not have right here, or I would share it with you).

I am not a real keyboard player, so my keyboard parts are simple, and require a lot of punching in to correct – sometimes built note at a time. Therefore, once I get the first 16 bars (or 8, or whatever), I often just copy it as many times as required to fill out the song, to avoid having to “play” the entire 100 some-odd bars.

I also plan exactly how many bars the song will be, so I know exactly when to stop playing on the first scratch rhythm track. That way I can build an ending to the song, rather than ending up with the much over used fade out require when all tracks just sort of peter out, leaving a ragged ending. I have found that the drums can just keep on playing past the final note, and be “cut” later. The guitar, however, must play the final note and stop, or be left to degenerate to a natural null (hold the note until it fades out). Once you have cut the drum track at the exact ending note it is easy to stop at the correct note with the rest of the tracks. If you decide you need an extra 8, 12, 16, or whatever, bars for another verse, a break, etc, just copy and insert the required number of bars in the appropriate location in the song. It is easy to do, and is absolutely perfect. The only problem will be if you already have the vocal down. Often a vocal verse begins slightly before the first note of the next bar (overlap) so you may have to do a little vocal punching in and out to get the vocal to fit the added bars. The same goes if you decide to shorten a song by cutting a verse out. It takes a little adjusting, but the end result will be perfect.

I only use headphones for vocals. I use Tannoy near field monitors, and have found that when I am laying down guitar and keyboard tracks it is much better to hear the playback through the monitors. Headphones do not give you a realistic idea of the sound. They usually sound better than the real mix. For sure the final mix should be done using monitors. Of course if you are recording in a place where you need to hold down the noise, the phones are a lifesaver.

Good luck and have fun. That’s what life is all about.


D. Larry Patterson
 
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