2008 Martin D28 - horrible resonances

[Monkey Allen]

For your sanity I hear it too or, at least, I hear something I don't like.
It's most obvious to me from from about 11 seconds when you switch to the G chord.

What I'm hearing's more offensive around 1900hz, which I've boosted to make more obvious for those who aren't hearing it.
Pretty much any frequency tight-q boost is going to sound offensive, of course, but I hear this particular area ringing out in the raw clip.

How to fix it? I don't know, but if it was my guitar I'd be doing a restring and working on the nut and saddle to make sure the strings all have a nice clean break and aren't rubbing where they shouldn't be.
I made an acoustic for my niece a couple of years ago from scratch, and neck-reset my own acoustic guitar too, and was pretty shocked to find that getting the nut and saddle right without weird pinched-like noises and buzzes were the hard bits.

View attachment 137168

I can certainly hear the issue in your clip there. But for me, the issue eases somewhat when the G chord comes along. Most prominently, the issue is associated with the Am chord. These strings are quite fresh. They are not old strings. The nut and saddle...I mean...they seem fine to me. The guitar plays really nicely, feels good. But there's this "overtone". I'm glad you can hear what I'm talking about. Because I think people must be thinking I'm pranking them or something.

Anyway, standby for a clip where I boost the freq in real time and lower it back down so that hopefully I can highlight the exact problem I'm hearing.

 

[Monkey Allen]

its magnified but its there.

for that kind of cash Id expect a lot of perfect.... changing strings is cheap,but spending a bunch of money to make a "namebrand expensive guitar" sound good always seemed odd to me. I think due to name brand and cost most of us would expect, assume the guitar is not needing a bunch of work $$ done to make it sound good?
I dont doubt if its a sentimental guitar, a luthier could probably fix it....just my opinion, on gear and fixing it. How much are you willing to spend on it? is the next question.

To sell it or fix it?

These are my thoughts pretty much exactly. And I'm glad you hear the problem. I'm not crazy. There's a mental block where I almost can't get my head around the fact that such a flagship, expensive guitar sounds like horseshit. It's sentimental in a way because it was supposed to be this great guitar etc...but not that sentimental. Frankly, I lean heavily toward selling it. I really don't care to keep a guitar that sucks. For the money I make selling it I'll be able to buy a great Yamaha (or something) and have a huge chunk of change left.

 

[60's guy]

For your sanity I hear it too or, at least, I hear something I don't like.
It's most obvious to me from from about 11 seconds when you switch to the G chord.

What I'm hearing's more offensive around 1900hz, which I've boosted to make more obvious for those who aren't hearing it.
Pretty much any frequency tight-q boost is going to sound offensive, of course, but I hear this particular area ringing out in the raw clip.

How to fix it? I don't know, but if it was my guitar I'd be doing a restring and working on the nut and saddle to make sure the strings all have a nice clean break and aren't rubbing where they shouldn't be.
I made an acoustic for my niece a couple of years ago from scratch, and neck-reset my own acoustic guitar too, and was pretty shocked to find that getting the nut and saddle right without weird pinched-like noises and buzzes were the hard bits.

View attachment 137168

And yet MA is still insistent that he only hears it when he plays Am chord.

Sell the guitar and move on.

 

[Monkey Allen]

And yet MA is still insistent that he only hears it when he plays Am chord.

Sell the guitar and move on.

No, I haven't said that I don't think. I said it was most prominent when the Am chord is played. And yes, yes I'll sell the guitar and move on. But first a couple of clips.

One clip will be of the issue present for a while...then I engage an EQ where I boost the problematic range to highlight the issue for the rest of the clip. The problem frequency ended up being 777hz approx. 777hz is where the underlying "overtone/ drone/ sympathetic resonance/ thing" is.
The other clip will be of the issue present for a while...then I engage an EQ where I take the issue away for a period by notching out that freq range, before disengaging the EQ and therefore reintroducing the issue.

With these two clips anyone should be able to identify the issue I'm talking about. Now, some might say, well of course if you boost the problematic frequency (or any frequency) you're going to hear issues. Yes. I get that. These clips are to accentuate and highlight the issue only. Because some people can't hear it. Keep in mind also that when the issue is boosted and you go back to the un-EQ'd version, there's a tendency for the ears not to hear such a problem anymore. That's only because of perspective that it doesn't sound so bad. The issue is present. And it sounds bad.

Also, some might say, hey it doesn't sound so bad when you EQ that problem freq out, so what's your problem. Well, I just don't want a guitar with that shit going on. Instead I want a guitar that sounds right...right from the source, as they say.

PS...the 1900hz mentioned earlier by steenamaroo is problematic...that 2khz area is harsh etc...but that's not the freq range I'm talking about.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I hear it.
When the EQ comes in, you can also hear the wanted signals change.
So, just applying the EQ is not a fix.
Something is resonating.
Does it have a piezo transducer under the bridge?

 

[Monkey Allen]

I hear it.
When the EQ comes in, you can also hear the wanted signals change.
So, just applying the EQ is not a fix.
Something is resonating.
Does it have a piezo transducer under the bridge?

Nah it doesn't. It's a stock standard Martin D28. The basic version. 2008.

 

[Steenamaroo]

That's pretty interesting.
Your highlighted frequency is clear as a bell in the original clip but it didn't stand out to me as offensive.
Being honest I completely overlooked it.

I guess because it's not really dissonant. Ok, it's the 7th note of the chord you're playing (which you're not playing) but the 1900hz I pointed out is jarring to me because it's dissonant.

Regardless, you probably shouldn't be hearing either that pronounced.

I'm afraid I've got no more advice for you, all the same.

If it was me I would
-try in a different room
-try a different mic
-change strings
-ensure that saddle and nut are perfect
-use inspection mirror to check for lifted bracing
-ensure bridge isn't lifting - see if thin paper can go under it anywhere

Some of this you may already have done, or ruled out, but I'm just giving my complete thought process.
Beyond that it's either find a respected luthier or flog it and move on, as you've already said.

 

[Gtoboy]

So IME string gauge , material and construction have a HUGE influence on the overall timbre including resonances. Steeno is dead on about getting the nut right also which is why using a capo does not just "raise the pitch". It actually changes the timbre and resonances also by changing the scale length and using a steel fret at the 'nut' instead of bone, graphite, what have you. Lower every string a half tone and capo at the first fret and you are playing the same register with a totally different timbre.

I never found any Martins that were good for close micing. Not saying there aren't any-just haven't personally met one. Distance micing yeah. However, I never owned one so have not put in the time to get the tone I wanted out of one.

TLDR: ANY acoustic can sound bad recorded and most will need some experimenting and time to get the 'best' out of them. Even the Gibson Jumbos ( ala Greg Lake) have wildly varied characters and may need tweaks to get 'just right'

That said it is easier to buy a used Yamaha parlor guitar. The smaller body makes them a lot more tonally balanced, thus easier to record.

 

[R D Smith]

I hear it.
When the EQ comes in, you can also hear the wanted signals change.
So, just applying the EQ is not a fix.
Something is resonating.
Does it have a piezo transducer under the bridge?

Nah it doesn't. It's a stock standard Martin D28. The basic version. 2008.

Does it have a compensated bridge?

I have a D'Angelico that had a piezo transducer under a compensated bridge and Am always sounded weird. Like it was out of tune, but the individual notes were in tune. I couldn't figure it out. I finally removed the transducer and installed a straight bridge like my Guild D25's have and that fixed it.

 

[CoolCat]

These are my thoughts pretty much exactly. And I'm glad you hear the problem. I'm not crazy. There's a mental block where I almost can't get my head around the fact that such a flagship, expensive guitar sounds like horseshit. It's sentimental in a way because it was supposed to be this great guitar etc...but not that sentimental. Frankly, I lean heavily toward selling it. I really don't care to keep a guitar that sucks. For the money I make selling it I'll be able to buy a great Yamaha (or something) and have a huge chunk of change left.

yeah sentimental for me might be a inherited uncle family guitar or a gift or one I wrote a hit song on...or like Willie Nelsons worn out or McCartneys first hofner...
but if its just a guitar I bought myself, its not sentimental at all. Also I have very little hope in fixing acoustics myself or guitar necks ...no luthier in my house!etc...so Id sell.
Ive had nice guitars come and go, nothing expensive like a D28. My son got me a new one, close to the small martin, blueridge but its got some funky buzzs at some frets, so I will do new strings but thats about it...it was a gift so hard to sell it.

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm just the bass player so everything has resonance for me.

 

[Monkey Allen]

That's pretty interesting.
Your highlighted frequency is clear as a bell in the original clip but it didn't stand out to me as offensive.
Being honest I completely overlooked it.

I guess because it's not really dissonant. Ok, it's the 7th note of the chord you're playing (which you're not playing) but the 1900hz I pointed out is jarring to me because it's dissonant.

Regardless, you probably shouldn't be hearing either that pronounced.

I'm afraid I've got no more advice for you, all the same.

If it was me I would
-try in a different room
-try a different mic
-change strings
-ensure that saddle and nut are perfect
-use inspection mirror to check for lifted bracing
-ensure bridge isn't lifting - see if thin paper can go under it anywhere

Some of this you may already have done, or ruled out, but I'm just giving my complete thought process.
Beyond that it's either find a respected luthier or flog it and move on, as you've already said.

Unfortunately, the highlighted frequency, to me, just shouldn't be there and is highly annoying. I mean, it's ridiculous to play a normal bunch of open position chords and have this leviathan "resonance" underpinning basically everything like some kind of guitar parasite attaching itself grinch-like to everything you do. I don't have a stable of guitars, this is pretty much it so, you know. It gets on your nerves.

Also as I said, the "resonance" (or whatever we wanna call it) doesn't have anything to do with the room or mic. It comes directly from the guitar and is inherent to the guitar. It's not a product of the room or mic/ recording. What you said about checking the nut and saddle and scanning for bracing issues etc...yes, I'll do that to the best of my ability. Bridge is absolutely not lifting. Thanks for taking the time to listen and offer suggestions.

 

[Monkey Allen]

So IME string gauge , material and construction have a HUGE influence on the overall timbre including resonances. Steeno is dead on about getting the nut right also which is why using a capo does not just "raise the pitch". It actually changes the timbre and resonances also by changing the scale length and using a steel fret at the 'nut' instead of bone, graphite, what have you. Lower every string a half tone and capo at the first fret and you are playing the same register with a totally different timbre.

I never found any Martins that were good for close micing. Not saying there aren't any-just haven't personally met one. Distance micing yeah. However, I never owned one so have not put in the time to get the tone I wanted out of one.

TLDR: ANY acoustic can sound bad recorded and most will need some experimenting and time to get the 'best' out of them. Even the Gibson Jumbos ( ala Greg Lake) have wildly varied characters and may need tweaks to get 'just right'

That said it is easier to buy a used Yamaha parlor guitar. The smaller body makes them a lot more tonally balanced, thus easier to record.

Absolutely. And that's a great idea as an experiment with the lowering pitch and then using the capo. Will try this out of curiosity. Also remember...this acoustic sounds bad recorded...because that's how it sounds. It took me a long time to realize this, because I'm thick as a brick. But yes, this guitar sounds like this to the naked ear. Not just on recordings. I'm with you on the parlor or concert sized Yamahas. I'll be spending some time at the guitar shop.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Does it have a compensated bridge?

I have a D'Angelico that had a piezo transducer under a compensated bridge and Am always sounded weird. Like it was out of tune, but the individual notes were in tune. I couldn't figure it out. I finally removed the transducer and installed a straight bridge like my Guild D25's have and that fixed it.

Nope...well I mean it has been pro setup for correct intonation and all that. The bone bridge is not dead straight. It's normal bone that has been shaped for correct intonation and height etc. Just a normal acoustic guitar bridge.

Honestly, it's been a number of years since I had it in the hands of a pro setup guy. What it likely needs...and what many have pointed out here...is a very close inspection of nut, saddle, bracing etc. My skills are ok but not advanced enough to really perform top notch diagnoses. Which, yeah, brings me back around in circles to what to do...sell it and disclose my thoughts on it...sell it...or take it to a pro. In the mix also is this...I've had the guitar since 2008/2009 and bought it new...but it's impossible for me to know if the issue has always been with the guitar. One thing I know...I've always found recording acoustic guitar very...very difficult. I seem to be expert at getting plenty of mud AND plenty of plinky, harsh treble all at the same time. I've done all the mic positions etc etc.

Anyway, at least we all kind of hear the issue. We can do no more here chatting about it I guess. So it's off to the luthier or I sell it or I keep it as a relic and buy a new guitar. Actually, there's no question I'll be buying a new guitar.

 

[keith.rogers]

I'm just not hearing anything I'd call resonance. Maybe some room, tuning, setup issues? Have you had your hearing checked? (Seriously.)

I'm attaching a quick analysis of a section I captured of your playing the Am chord, and then did some loose strumming of an Am on my mahogany OM guitar, recorded into Audacity, with the same analysis. Yours is on top in the image, and mine is on the bottom. They're not that different, at least I do not see anything jumping out there in frequencies where I'd be bothered - maybe my eyes are as bad as my ears, though...

 

[Steenamaroo]

I'm just not hearing anything I'd call resonance.

Did you listen to the clip where he emphasised the ringing frequency in the second half?
I'd have thought it was unmissable in that clip.

 

[keith.rogers]

Did you listen to the clip where he emphasised the ringing frequency in the second half?
I'd have thought it was unmissable in that clip.

I did not, but I will.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Have to say, though. Your recorded clip is doing exactly the same thing, probably more so!

 

[keith.rogers]

Have to say, though. Your recorded clip is doing exactly the same thing, probably more so!

Yeah, well, I did my best - strumming is not something I do, at least not like that... I don't hear "resonance" so much as string balance, or perhaps un-balance, but I'll do a capture of those other clips, put my glasses on, and look.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Oh, I'm not suggesting you did something wrong/badly.
I'm suggesting maybe it's a non-issue.