2 Newbie Questions

Kaulback

New member
Sorry to bother you all, I'm just really a newbie to this all so I'm wondering a couple of things...

1. What is a good keyboard stand to get? Does one size fit all? Does one durability support all weights? So confused. :confused:

2. I've noticed some artists performing with two keyboards, one lower and more in front of them, and one higher and above that. Why is that?

Thanks for any responses in advance, and again sorry to bother you guys with amateur stuff.
 
1. Keyboard stands are fairly generic and not expensive. Just get one that's sturdy enough to support a heavy keyboard.

2. 2 Keyboards = a wider choice of sounds.
 
Yes keyboards with built in sound programs can contain hundreds of sounds. But those sounds vary from maker to maker.
 
When you see a performing keyboardist, he/she may be playing several different sounds during one song. While a keyboard may have hundreds (even thousands) of sounds, you can only access so many at the same time.

I have had to cover numerous sounds all in one song (as an example - piano and a pad in the verse, a clavenet with strings in the bridge and organ and horns in the chorus). While a keyboard may have various zones (to access different sounds) you can still face octave limits or need a specific sound on the right side, vs. the left. Candidly, changing sounds in the middle of a song (in real time) can be very stressful - it's hard enough remembering all the chords, solos, breaks, lyrics, etc. etc. etc.

In addition, some keyboards (or modules or samplers) may have great piano sounds put poor brass sounds (every keyboard/module does certain things well and other things not so well). Or one keyboard may have great analog sounds, but poor accoustic sounds.

When I gig live, I have 2 keyboards (one digital and one analog), one of the keyboards also triggers a module and the other keyboard triggers a sampller (I have for volume pedals and the two keyboards go thru effects pedals). While it may seem a bit much, I find I use all 4 sound sources on almost every song (sometimes with several split zones - I've actually covered up to 9 sounds in one song).
 
Kaulback said:
Just seems really money-inefficient to buy a whole other keyboard just for the sounds to me... :rolleyes:

That's like telling an artist it's money-inefficient to have extra paints just for the colors. ;)
 
mikeh said:
When you see a performing keyboardist, he/she may be playing several different sounds during one song. While a keyboard may have hundreds (even thousands) of sounds, you can only access so many at the same time.

I have had to cover numerous sounds all in one song (as an example - piano and a pad in the verse, a clavenet with strings in the bridge and organ and horns in the chorus). While a keyboard may have various zones (to access different sounds) you can still face octave limits or need a specific sound on the right side, vs. the left. Candidly, changing sounds in the middle of a song (in real time) can be very stressful - it's hard enough remembering all the chords, solos, breaks, lyrics, etc. etc. etc.

In addition, some keyboards (or modules or samplers) may have great piano sounds put poor brass sounds (every keyboard/module does certain things well and other things not so well). Or one keyboard may have great analog sounds, but poor accoustic sounds.

When I gig live, I have 2 keyboards (one digital and one analog), one of the keyboards also triggers a module and the other keyboard triggers a sampller (I have for volume pedals and the two keyboards go thru effects pedals). While it may seem a bit much, I find I use all 4 sound sources on almost every song (sometimes with several split zones - I've actually covered up to 9 sounds in one song).
In that case, would it be possible to hook two keyboards up via MIDI and share sounds with each other? For example, if I were to buy a rather cheap keyboard could I use one sound from my good-quality keyboard on the cheap keyboard and another sound from my good-quality keyboard on the good-quality keyboard? That would be nice...
 
Kaulback said:
In that case, would it be possible to hook two keyboards up via MIDI and share sounds with each other? For example, if I were to buy a rather cheap keyboard could I use one sound from my good-quality keyboard on the cheap keyboard and another sound from my good-quality keyboard on the good-quality keyboard? That would be nice...

You could do that. Also, in many cases you don't have to buy the whole keyboard for the sounds. You can buy a sound module version with all the same sounds as the keyboard and connect them to one main(master or mother keyboard) via midi. The size of a sound module can range anywhere from 1/2 rack space up to several rack spaces.
 
hixmix said:
You could do that. Also, in many cases you don't have to buy the whole keyboard for the sounds. You can buy a sound module version with all the same sounds as the keyboard and connect them to one main(master or mother keyboard) via midi. The size of a sound module can range anywhere from 1/2 rack space up to several rack spaces.
Yes but how many sound modules do you know that have KARMA? :cool:
 
Yes you can. But there are several considerations. Generally hooking keyboards together like this, only allows the second keyboard access to the sounds, that are currently loaded up for the Master keyboard. If your Master keyboard allows you to assign different key zones (regions of the actual keyboard), you can have one keyboard play those sounds, and transpose the other keyboard down to play another zone in the current program. Alternatively, if the Master keyboard has a multi-channel sequencer (Most mid-to-high-spec workstations), you could set up a variety of sounds to play from the Global MIDI channel (The MIDI channel your master board transmits), and another variety of sounds to play when triggered from another MIDI channel (The channel the Slave keyboard transmits on).

In either case, the primary concern is the polyphonic limits of the master keyboard.
I.E. Say your Master keyboard has 64 voice polyphony, and you load up a program that has 8 layers using 2 voices each. Every keystroke = 16 voices. So basically you can press 4 simultaneous keys (64 voices). How a keyboard deals with it's polyphony allocation varies by make and model, but traditionally after the polyphonic limit is exceeded the keyboard ceases to play notes in the order they were played. So you can see, if you played 4 keys right close together and continued to press additional keys, the keyboard would first stop playing notes from the first key, when you press the fifth key, the second note is released when you press the sixth key. Of course if the program uses less voices then you are allowed more simultaneous notes.
So now as an example you set the Master keyboard up with the same 8 layer (x2 voice) program, and a second 8 layer (x2 voice) program set up for the Slave keyboard, you have effectively reduced the Master keyboard's sound module, to only being able to play 2 notes simultaneously, not very handy if you want to have a sustained string patch playing chords, while trying to play a multi-layer piano sound.

One final consideration is MIDI itself. Some (actually most) keyboards I have tried this with, often have trouble processing MIDI data when under an extreme load. You may end up with stuck notes, which are usually only cured by changing the program (or not cured at all if the stuck MIDI data is originating in the Slave board), and VERY RARELY, will you find MIDI Panic buttons on synthesizers (Those that do are going to cost big $$$).

But if you invest in a higher-spec keyboard, and are careful to budget your processing power, what you suggest is a viable solution. But you're still adding a second keyboard (via the controller), so why not just get one that has its own sounds, features, and character. Hope this helps clarify this subject a bit.
And if you think having 2 keyboards is outrageous, you need to look at some of the classic rigs out there (Keith Emerson's, Richard Tandy's, etc.), especially pre-MIDI rigs. Some of those great 70's keyboardists were using a half-dozen or more of classic analog syths combined with B3's and Leslies speakers, and REAL acoustic pianos. I drool with jealousy!!! But not because they needed an entire moving van just for keyboards.
 
And my point. You need a KARMA, controllers won't do what KARMA does without a whole lot of headache. But a KARMA can't do it all, so you need a nice 88 key graded hammer action keyboard with great piano sounds. Don't get me wrong I LOVE KORG!!! But HI synthesis pianos are....well....OK I won't speak I'll of the KARMA, but there are much better piano sounds out there (and brass sounds).
 
For what it's worth, there is a long anticipated version of the KARMA software called KARMA Creator that actually WILL allow you to utilize the KARMA function with any MIDI data and not require a KARMA or Triton as it does now.

Stephen Kay has not given any kind of release date and, in truth, I don't know if it will ever happen. I almost hope it doesn't. I like being among the few who have this board. It's unlike anything else.

Kaulback- If you find getting separate modules inefficient, get yourself a DAW, a keyboard controller and a bunch of soft-synths. They have their limitations as well, but offer a lot of bang for the buck.

Atterion- One of the other amazing things about those rigs of the 70's was that none of those synths had any presets! I remember seeing ELP in concert and being blown away by not only Emerson's technique, but the histrionics he and his keyboard guys had to perform to repatch sounds between and, especially, DURING songs! It's amazing that they didn't have more problems.

Ted
 
I use two boards playing live. One is my Yamaha S80 - love it for the weighted action, the other is a DX7. The DX7 is used for some various old DX7 sounds, but primarily to play organ patches from the S80. A little easier on the fingers playing organ stuff on a synth-weighted board.
 
Wow thanks, this is all very informative stuff that's helped alot. Now, being the newbie I am, I have more questions. Sorry again. Feel free to e-punch me if this frustrates you.

Could somebody define the following for me?
-volume pedals
-effects pedals

(if pedals are what i think they are, that guitars use, its greatly confusing why you would need them)

-split zones
-rack space
-HI synths
-DAWs
-soft-synths

Also from what I can see, you can play faster on nonweighted keys, so what's really the point in weighted keys? :confused:
 
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Kaulback said:
Also from what I can see, you can play faster on nonweighted keys, so what's really the point in weighted keys? :confused:


That's up to what feels best for the player. I started off playing on a grand. I prefer a weighted action. I use a Yamaha KX-88. A keyboardist that started out on a Hammond B-3 might prefer an unweighted action.

It's not necessarily true that you can play faster on non-weighted keys. Listen to any jazz or classical piano virtuoso playing a concert grand.
 
Kaulback said:
(if pedals are what i think they are, that guitars use, its greatly confusing why you would need them)

In your words, what do you think they are?
 
And there's less feel with non-weighted keys. Faster does not always equal better. You can be technically perfect and have no feel in the music.
 
hixmix said:
In your words, what do you think they are?
I'm not quite sure, but my best guess would be they are related to the distortion pedals guitar players use...but that is just like switching to another sound...I guess maybe if you need to switch and don't have time to lift your fingers from the board for even one second a pedal might be handy...perhaps I've answered my own question here.
 
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