2 mic's for violin and upright bass

iLogical

iLogical

a member member
Hi I have searched endlessly for something about my setup and I can't find anything! I keep on getting clues here and there from Qs about other setups but nothing this specific at all.

I am trying to setup a small home studio for my brother and I (5string violin + double bass + Vocals). due to the nature of our music it would be insane to try and record the two instruments separately so the duo will be live (though for the vocal that is fine and probably better)

I am running Logic 9 on a macbook pro
i plan to get a "M-Audio Fast Track Ultra" as an interface/sound card as I believe this is suitable for the purpose (tell me if it isn't plz!)

so! i need help choosing some Mics. for Violin/viola and double bass, hopefully under £1000 each, for close miking. if there are any really good deals a bit above throw them in as well.
I'm just looking for the best i can get for what i can afford.

I have come to the conclusion that the Neumann tlm 103 is what i need but i thought i should bring this to you to see if I have missed anything.

I realise that the room is VERY important (mostly from just playing and recording at other studios. but sadly my current options are very limited so I'll have to make the best i can with dampening, close miking and adding a room later! :( however this should only be temporary :)

My rubbish budget is what it is because all the money comes from music my brother and I make (gigs, CDs etc).we are 17/16 and still at 6th form college - which is not ideal as we are limited on gigs we can accept and earn from.

My plan is to make better recordings than in the professional studio we use NOT IN TERMS OF SOUND QUALITY!!! don't worry i have no illusions that i will be able to compete with that!
on the other hand, given the rush we have to record in at a commercial studio our playing isn't as good and it means we are stressed for time/money/travel etc...
if we were recording at home i believe we could be much more relaxed and spend more time perfecting the take. also we can do whatever we like to tailor our equipment to exactly what we need.

thankyou for any suggestions, help, advice or tips you can share with me

iLogical
 
while not a fan of the TLM103 (and as I will admit the reaction is entirely subjective and personal I will avoid detailing my reactions to that mic and indicate that some perfectly usable recordings have employed it) it is certainly a choice

Personally for a one mic fits all solution I lean in the direction of the U47 and while the Oktava mod modifications using the a modern K47 capsule, plus some circuit upgrades and opening the headbasket do not sound, to me, specifically like a vintage U47FET they, the mods of very inexpensive mics, produce some great options for very reasonable prices

I am pretty happy with Oktavamod K47 LDC on an upright bass . . . but I try fairly diligently to not close mic acoustic bass

probably my first choice(s) on acoustic bass remains some variation of a ribbon mic The Royer R121 comes in at a little over $1000(US), the AEA R84 right at $1000, the Audio Technica AT4081 runs about $700 and Shure offers one for about the same price. While ribbons are not their best in close mic situations you can use the null point of the figure of 8 pattern in positioning two mics on two instruments and reducing bleed which can be a plus in the recording situation you are describing

if you want to explore the SCD's the Joesephson C42 might be one to look at. I don't own one but have used them on several occasions on several different instruments. Never violin but found them useful on a variety of mandolins. Over the years I've used the Audio Technica AT4051 as a less expensive stand in for KM84 and AKG 451. Been happy over all with AT4051 on a number of bowed string instruments. I don't believe Audio Technica does 'match pairs' but a matched pair of the Josephson C42's can be found (in US) for about $950

so those and a ribbon mic (also not bad choice for vocals) keeps you under buget

upgrading the mics can probably benefit from a mic pre upgrade and now I think the Audient Mico is going for about 430 GBP which for two channels with A/D conversions via AES or s/pdif is fairly reasonable. Recomending that one partially because I don't think the current audio card allows you by pass its mic pre's entirely with analog input
 
thanks again oretez for all the details - plz explain the lack of enthusiasm for the tlm 103!
also why are some mics better/worse?
people seem to be saying large-diaphragm-condenser or ribbon - why?
I get the impression that the ribbons are less true but nice and warm - correct?
the only real reason i might be somewhat nervous of ribbons is that I have never used one in any studio or heard a recording of one. also the small space we will have record in doesn't seem to be suited to their figure8.

thanks for your help already

also any ideas about the tlm103 on violin guys?
 
I get the impression that the ribbons are less true but nice and warm - correct?
Click to expand...
Nope!
They are truer, which is what I mean by "Flat Response" and do not add warmth. M.I.T.T.s and Tubes add warmth.
They are a little more difficult to work with though, in light of the figure 8 pattern and perceived fragility.
 
Jim Lad said:
Nope!
They are truer, which is what I mean by "Flat Response" and do not add warmth. M.I.T.T.s and Tubes add warmth.
They are a little more difficult to work with though, in light of the figure 8 pattern and perceived fragility.
Click to expand...

ah thanks for that - i think i got confused between tubes and ribbons?
anyway thanks for straitening that out :)
are you saying that ribbons are truer than large diaphragm condensers (in general)?

North West London, about two miles from the start of the M1.
Click to expand...

ah well, not exactly close but pretty much at the heart of things! - we should share some music/lyrics - my bro and I have just started songwriting (rather than instrumental) we finished our 5th song a couple of days ago actually - i get the idea your a lyricist, it'd be great to hear what you think! :)
 
hi Guys thanks for the help so far

I'd just like to add a minor hypothetical Q:

what would ideal shape of a room be for recording these two instruments?
or what kind of space is best for a consistent sound generally?
circular? oblong? (not square obvsly) domed roof? flat roof?

any ideas

cheers

also any news on a mic for the bass - ribbon?
 
Whatever shape the room they sound best in.
That's my number one answer.

Past that it depends. You want a good room sound? Then exactly the shape of a great sounding room - anything from well built recording studio up to a majestic concert hall.
You want just direct sound without worrying about the sound of the room?
Then a room with no ceiling or walls. You can get close to this with a nice outside environment without too much background noise.
 
Last edited:
Ribbons are truer than condenser microphones in the same price range.
Obviously a $2000 Condenser is going to be truer than a $200 ribbon.
My opinion only, of course.
Condensers are much easier to work with but I think I already told you that.
 
As for rooms, circular is bad. Very bad. The best rooms are large with nonparallel walls and high ceilings. In between are reasonably sized rooms with nonsquare proportions. Hard floors are generally good, but there needs to be some absorptive surfaces and/or furniture to break up reflections. Ceiling tile is usually OK.

I can't say I agree re: $200 ribbons, they don't tend to be flat at all, they tend to have a falling high frequency response. GAP didn't publish a freq. response that I could find; they seemed to have trouble deciding if that model was active or passive, as they called it both in different places. This could be a language barrier, as I think they are in Scandinavia. Nevertheless, techical details are not complete.

Also note that nearly all ribbons are figure-8 (with some notable exceptions). Fig-8 mics have the largest proximity effect of any microphone pattern. This means that low frequency response varies dramatically with distance to source. In other words, you'd have to keep the mic relatively close to the bass, which might be OK if that's what you wanted to do in the first place.

My recommendation for your price range and location would be a pair of Beyer MC930s. I am fairly certain that they will be found superior to any inexpensive ribbon for your application. Then I would think pretty hard about something like an AT4047 for vocals, but that's just a wild guess. A vocal mic can be anything you like . . . but those are three mics that would be perfectly at home in any pro studio.

I think that's three mics for a little over your £1000 budget--for one :)
 
mshilarious - that is a great help!

will the beyers really compare to the tlm103 at £300 or so? that sounds much too good to be true!
also i thought you wanted a larger diaphragm for violin or it would sound too scratchy?

thanks
 
iLogical said:
mshilarious - that is a great help!

will the beyers really compare to the tlm103 at £300 or so? that sounds much too good to be true!
Click to expand...

It's not, really. If you read around, the TLM103 is rather a controversial mic; some like it, some hate it, but the general consensus is that it's a good mic but is perhaps not price competitive at its performance level vs. the C414, AT4050, KSM141, etc.--all of which are multipattern vs. cardioid only for the TLM103. So it's not hard for mics to beat it on value.

The MC930 however has hardly had a bad word written about it, and is popular with classical recordists. I haven't used one myself; if you were in the US I'd recommend the KSM141 instead. But Shures are too expensive in Europe, and Beyers are expensive in the US. From what I gather from samples and reading, these two mics are very competitive.

also i thought you wanted a larger diaphragm for violin or it would sound too scratchy?
Click to expand...

Scratchiness is a function mainly of the player, secondarily of mic position, and finally of mic response. There are two ways to handle the latter: slow transient response or a high frequency rolloff. LDCs will give up some transient response; most ribbons give up some HF. But if you are a reasonable player, you can control tone with mic position--just lower it to shoulder level rather than above the violin. That is a much more dramatic change than the difference between SDC and LDC transient response.

Also, a lot of LDCs are designed with a response peak in the presence range, because they are mainly intended for vocals. There are exceptions; for example, note the difference between models of C414s. A presence peak is not what you want if you need to reduce bow/string noise.

Finally, my opinion is that if you buy a very dark mic to squelch a violin, it will not be acceptable for viola. There is always EQ if all other efforts fail . . .
 
It's not, really. If you read around, the TLM103 is rather a controversial mic; some like it, some hate it, but the general consensus is that it's a good mic but is perhaps not price competitive at its performance level vs. the C414, AT4050, KSM141, etc.--all of which are multipattern vs. cardioid only for the TLM103. So it's not hard for mics to beat it on value.
Click to expand...

are you saying the only reason it doesn't compare is the relative flexibility or the actual sound? cos i only need one good sound from it not all the nobs and whistles


also how do you think the MC 930 would deal with an upright bass?

when when we recorded our last CD (at a pro studio) we had allot of trouble with clicks and slaps (too much of them and very peircing).
partly because of the mic and partly and cos of the playing (but unavoidable - not bad playing just percussive because of that piece).

we re-recorded with a U47 (unnavailable at first - being repaired) and it was fine.
is this just a quality of amazing (and very expensive) mics? or could a similar sound be found somewhere affordable also?

on a side note i found this "the shure ksm141 has exceptional reproduction of low-frequency sounds" - i'm asuming that is good for a double bass sound!!! would you say this was better than the beyer for violin as well?


again thanks for your help this is fantastic!!!! :D
I can't tell you how hard specific info like this is to find
 
iLogical said:
are you saying the only reason it doesn't compare is the relative flexibility or the actual sound? cos i only need one good sound from it not all the nobs and whistles
Click to expand...

For a close mic application, yes you do probably only want one solution. But when you see discussions about these mics, that is what people are thinking.


when when we recorded our last CD (at a pro studio) we had allot of trouble with clicks and slaps (too much of them and very peircing).
partly because of the mic and partly and cos of the playing (but unavoidable - not bad playing just percussive because of that piece).
Click to expand...

Again, mic positioning is always critical.

we re-recorded with a U47 (unnavailable at first - being repaired) and it was fine.
is this just a quality of amazing (and very expensive) mics? or could a similar sound be found somewhere affordable also?
Click to expand...

The U47 is like the holy grail of microphones. No, rather, the "affordable" U47 is the holy grail. The AT4047 I mentioned is one of the "inspired by" mics (vs. the U47 FET). Is it as good as the U47? I dunno, but I would doubt it.

on a side note i found this "the shure ksm141 has exceptional reproduction of low-frequency sounds" - i'm asuming that is good for a double bass sound!!! would you say this was better than the beyer for violin as well?
Click to expand...

What I like about the KSM141 is that it is switchable pattern. I think an omni pattern is better for bass than cardioid, because omni has no proximity effect and therefore a flat bass response. So you can put the mic close, you can put it near, either way you get a natural bass tone.

With the MC930, it should also be fine, but you probably want to spend a couple of minutes getting the mic position optimized.
 
thanks again for the wonderful info!

the 141 is certainly not out of our budget so i may go for that (at least for the bass) however my one concern is bleed from the violin. if we are recording in the same room i don't want too much violin from an omni. could this be sufficiently avoided by separation boards around the bass.
the room we would record in at the mo is tiny! however it should be bigger soon and i may even be able to build a whole new room for a studio at some point. but for now any suggestions...?

cheers
 
iLogical said:
thanks again for the wonderful info!

the 141 is certainly not out of our budget so i may go for that (at least for the bass) however my one concern is bleed from the violin. if we are recording in the same room i don't want too much violin from an omni. could this be sufficiently avoided by separation boards around the bass.
the room we would record in at the mo is tiny! however it should be bigger soon and i may even be able to build a whole new room for a studio at some point. but for now any suggestions...?

cheers
Click to expand...

The 141 is switchable between omni and cardioid.
 
ok but u said omni could be better on bass - so assuming it was - would some kind of temporary separation limit the bleed?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top