2 Channel Pre At The End Of Mix

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dzara 4

New member
Hi,

I have been mixing ITB for about a year now and have been getting good results with my UAD plugs, etc.However, I was considering getting a Pacifica pre or a great River 2 Channel for a my front end but was also thinking about sending my mix out and then adding the color and gain of the pre. I eventually will be getting more analog equipment but I have to budget myself. Is anybody using this method? :rolleyes: It would be like using a folcrom but without the analog summing. By the way I am using RME conversion so I don't think that the addittional AD would be very detrimental to the recording.


Thanks
 
Id say its worth trying. Just be sure to A/B at the same volume to make sure it actually adds to the mix rather than the opposite. :)

Eck
 
dzara 4 said:
I was considering getting a Pacifica pre or a great River 2 Channel for a my front end but was also thinking about sending my mix out and then adding the color and gain of the pre.
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I think the idea of having a channel or two of short signal chain, top-shelf pre for inbound tracking is an excellent idea.

I don't quite get the sending back out to them during mixing, though, unless you ar using devices that also accept line levels. A mic preamp would typically not be the device for that as your gain levels would be all messed up. You could so such a thing with something like an outboard compressor or EQ, or even an analog tape deck, and that kind of thing is often done. But a mic pre would be the wrong tool for the job; you'd be over-amplifying the line level.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I think the idea of having a channel or two of short signal chain, top-shelf pre for inbound tracking is an excellent idea.

I don't quite get the sending back out to them during mixing, though, unless you ar using devices that also accept line levels. A mic preamp would typically not be the device for that as your gain levels would be all messed up. You could so such a thing with something like an outboard compressor or EQ, or even an analog tape deck, and that kind of thing is often done. But a mic pre would be the wrong tool for the job; you'd be over-amplifying the line level.

G.
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Good stuff Glen.
To get a sound from the pre amp the gain would have to be pushed which as Glen said, will make your signal pretty hot. You could ask the ME to do something like that though.

Eck
 
For years, I have ran my console outputs back into an ART preamp before the mix down deck (computer, DAT, etc...). Not only did I prefer it, but the clients did too!

Be careful with your gains and you will be fine. Whether the pre's you seek will do something "good" for the sound remains to be heard, but I can guarantee that it WILL change the sound!
 
Ford Van said:
For years, I have ran my console outputs back into an ART preamp before the mix down deck (computer, DAT, etc...). Not only did I prefer it, but the clients did too!

Be careful with your gains and you will be fine. Whether the pre's you seek will do something "good" for the sound remains to be heard, but I can guarantee that it WILL change the sound!
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I've had good luck using my DAV Electronics BG-1 preamp this way, as well. You do need to be careful with your levels, but once you have that set up properly all should be fine.

This is indeed somethiing to experiment with. Preamping the mix might work for some mixes and not others, one preamp might work well for it and another not. I believe it's important to have a couple channels of great preamps, and part of the benefit of that is that you can use them in this way as well.
 
I stand corrected. :)

I'd stress the watching the gain staging part, though, and also point out that just because this technique is valid doesn't mean that a rookie should imply that as granting license to just run line outs into pre ins anywhere in a signal chain without purposeful consideration and without having a sonic reason.

G.
 
Right, one has to listen to one's own work and be able to say "that was a bad idea". Sometimes people, especially inexperienced recordists, will read about a technique here or in a magazine and then turn it into a "rule" in their minds. So then there's always a preamp on the mix, whether it's called for or not.

This is definitely a technique that has to be done correctly, and done with the understanding that you have to listen to the results and decide whether the preamp helped or not. Then respond accordingly.

I suppose you could say that about *any* recording and mixing technique, but preamping the mix can be one of the touchier things in my opinion.
 
SonicAlbert said:
IRight, one has to listen to one's own work and be able to say "that was a bad idea". Sometimes people, especially inexperienced recordists, will read about a technique here or in a magazine and then turn it into a "rule" in their minds. So then there's always a preamp on the mix, whether it's called for or not.

This is definitely a technique that has to be done correctly, and done with the understanding that you have to listen to the results and decide whether the preamp helped or not. Then respond accordingly.

I suppose you could say that about *any* recording and mixing technique, but preamping the mix can be one of the touchier things in my opinion.
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You just KNOW that there are going to be those out there that view this particular technique and not only see at as a "rule", but on the other side of the coin, will view this valid exception to nominal gain staging "rules" (for lack of a better term) as precident to ignore basic gain staging altogether.

Before you know it we'll have another run of folks plugging their line out gear into mic pres with phantom power swicthed on, and blowing up the outs on that gear that does not have protection built-in. (We just got finished with a thread on someone who blew up their Pro MPA that very way.)

Or those that insist that it's OK to plug the line out on their mixer into the Mic In on their Soundblaster, and don't understand why they are getting as much noise as they are signal.

And so on.

G.
 
I am sure glad that when I was a "rookie" that people didn't discourage me from trying things out! :(

Oh wait, there wasn't internet BBS's back then with "engineers" who's work I can't ever hear because they won't post it telling me I shouldn't do something. ;)
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You just KNOW that there are going to be those out there that view this particular technique and not only see at as a "rule", but on the other side of the coin, will view this valid exception to nominal gain staging "rules" (for lack of a better term) as precident to ignore basic gain staging altogether.

Before you know it we'll have another run of folks plugging their line out gear into mic pres with phantom power swicthed on, and blowing up the outs on that gear that does not have protection built-in. (We just got finished with a thread on someone who blew up their Pro MPA that very way.)

Or those that insist that it's OK to plug the line out on their mixer into the Mic In on their Soundblaster, and don't understand why they are getting as much noise as they are signal.

And so on.

G.
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Gosh, you sound cynical and burned out on helping people. Tell ya what Glen, take a break from here and come back when you feel you can be helpful! ;) And while you are gone, get some mp3's of your work available for all the "rookies" to hear.
 
Ford Van said:
I am sure glad that when I was a "rookie" that people didn't discourage me from trying things out!
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Who's discouraging anything here, Ed? All both Al and I are saying that it's a technique that needs to be caveated, not discouraged. I said I stood corrected.

You're just spoiling for another fight is all. Go try it on chessrock; I'm not interested.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Who's discouraging anything here, Ed? All both Al and I are saying that it's a technique that needs to be caveated, not discouraged. I said I stood corrected.

You're just spoiling for another fight is all. Go try it on chessrock; I'm not interested.

G.
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I see! As well as a " professional engineer ", you are also a mind reader! :rolleyes:

When you throw around words like "rookie", I think your intent speaks for itself Glen. Sweep your own side of the block before you comment on my over flowing trash can eh? ;)
 
Furthermore, this BBS was around LONG before you came around, and it will probably be around long after you lose interest in it. The reason it is here is because people read around and see that they are encouraged to learn!

I have found it best to not comment on subjects I don't know much about. Like when guys start in on building compressors and preamps. I know NOTHING about that, thus, I keep out. If you don't know anything about putting a preamp between the console and mix down deck, you should have probably stayed out of the subject! MANY people do it, and it is obvious that you haven't tried it! But there you were telling the guy he shouldn't do it because he would be messing up his gain structure? That don't even make sense! The output fader on a console is an amplifier! Anything between the console and mix down deck will probably have some kind of amplifier on it!

Anyway. Just another example of your very limited experience.
 
Good point about the phantom power. You'd definitely want to keep that in the "off" position when preamping a mix.

The basic idea is to turn the master volume of the mix down low enough so that there isn't any clipping on the input of the preamp, and then don't amplify the mix to the point that the inputs of the converters or the DAW are clipping.

And then be prepared to make a judgement on whether it's helping or hurting. I've found it really depends on the material, and I don't preamp every mix by any means. When it works it can be a nice thing though.
 
Thanks for the advice


I definitly don't think it would be something I would be doing to every mix

but could have added benefits. Plus, different pre-amps will add different

character so I could see it being a bit of trial and error.
 
ecktronic said:
Holly molly!
I cant beleive my eyes. Glen not right about something when hes usually 100% about 100%! :)
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Hey, I'm not perfect :). Nobody is. At least I admit when my answer may not have been completly correct, and don't instead just decide to personally attack the person correcting me.

The fact is, I have never had a need to run any 2mixes through a preamp. I do it all the time with external hardware for the very reasons the OP is asking about, but I have done just fine, thank you very much, with the comps and EQs that I have had at my disposal over the years.

I stand by the statement "use with caution", for the reasons given earlier. It's not a jaded POV, it a realistic one. Nor is it a discouragement to experiment. It's a caution not to touch a hot stove. Telling my nephews to put down the fireworks before lighting them is not a discouragement from using fireworks; it's simply wise advice as to how to best enjoy them. I happen to disagree with some in that I don't think that the questioners on this board are of such low intelligence that the only way they can learn not to touch a stove or to hold a lit M-80 is to burn off or blow off their hand first.

And I use the term "rookies" because I personally find it less offensive then "newbies", and because it accurately and respectfully applies to those who are new to the field.

G.
 
Southside Glen!!! The savior of those seeking to experiment! :rolleyes:

BruceBear used to post all kinds of warnings to "newbs" wouldn't get into "trouble" while recording/mixing/mastering. It was mostly annoying.

I like the approach that there is no problem until there is a problem. I have long given up on expecting that people hear it the way I hear it. Some people SEEK to mangle their audio and are very happy when they do!
 
I do it all the time for beefing up bass guitar, drum tracks, keyboards, and the occasional vocal. I've never tried this on the entire mix though...

I'll give this a shot on the next mix I do.
 
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