1st time recording a mic'd guitar amp - any hot tips?

Sifunkle

Sifunkle

New member
Hey all,

I know this topic has probably been done to death, so sorry for polluting the board (but I have read some material on the topic, so hopefully you're not too annoyed).

I've only recorded guitar DI, but I've borrowed my friend's amp for tomorrow and am gonna have a crack at recording my Jaguar through it. I'm not sure exactly what the amp is (doubt my friend knows either ;)), but I suspect it's some sort of Fender Hot Rod Deluxe along these lines (except it's 180W):

Fender® Hot Rod III Amplifiers

I'll be using the one mic I own which is a JTS JS-1 condenser:

JTS - Wired Microphones,Studio Microphone,JS-1

Just wondering if anyone has any specific advice in terms of mic placement, shaping the tone, etc? I'm a bass native and usually go DI, so it's shaky ground for me.

If someone would be so kind as to remind/inform me of the key things I should look out for, I'd really appreciate it.

Si

P.S. I have little knowledge of mics other than the general types... is anyone familiar with the JTS JS-1, and how it shapes up? Or can anyone enlighten me as to what you might infer from its specs if they meant anything to you?
 
Normally you would want a dynamic mic for this, but I guess you could try with a condenser. Once in a while I use a condenser.

First of all make the amp sounds good before you put a mic on it. It may require significant volume. Maybe tilt it back so you're hearing the actual tone. Then set up a mic and feed the signal into a good pair of isolating headphones and try different positions. Put the mic right up on the grill and slide it around from center out to the edge until you find a good balance of tone. It will be bright at the center and less bright toward the edge of the speaker.
 
Top tip.

as said, get the amp to sound right.

Then turn down the gain.

Then turn down the gain again.

Just keep turning it down for ages.

Now go :)


Seriously though, high gain always seems like it'll be great, then it sounds like fizzle.
 
I agree with previous posts, you can always add more gain but you can't take it away. Placement is a huge deal in getting what you want out of a guitar recording, and experimentation. There is all kinds of techiniques, on axis, off axis, distance from grill, to where the capsule is located at the speaker (center cap, edge, and in between). My best advice would be lower your gain, double track your guitar, play with placement, volume, position. You will have to do some trial and error, but you will get a good tone, even with a condenser. I personally use a senneheiser e609, and absolutely love my results, some people prefer a sm57. It really comes down to what you like to hear.
 
Like it's been said above...you're going to have to try out several mic positions and amp settings the first time out...but enjoy yourself with it, don't get frustrated if you don't find your tone right away. Use it as a learning experience and take note of what each adjustment does...and save that in your head for future use. :)

I've used condensers in the past, though as mentioned, they aren't really the go-to choice for guitar cabs, but you certainly can find a good tone with them. You might end up needing to position it somewhat off-axis to avoid picking up a lot of high-end hash, since a condenser will hone-in on upper frequency transients a lot more than a dynamic or a ribbon mic (my pref).

In case you don't know what off-axis means...in simple terms it means don't square-up the mic perfectly perpendicular to the speaker, but rather give it a turn by 20-30-40 degrees to either side. Also, you might end up needing to move it off-center too, so as not to get the full thrust of the speaker cone, but the more "mellower" sound of the outer area of the speaker...but again, try a few positions.
I would also not go back more than 24" since it's your only mic, and you don't want a ton of room sound and ambience...but then again, I would certainly try it one time. :D

What I like to do when auditioning tones/setups...is to play the same exact thing with each new position or amp change, and make sure I record it. I will usually speak into the mic the position/settings at the head of each recording....repeating the new position/settings with each subsequent pass/track.
You end up with several test tracks, each one telling you exactly what you did...then you sit and listen to each of them and find the one(s) you like, then use those settings for the actual guitar tracks. Save those test tracks for future reference.
I do that for other things too, not just guitar.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone, really appreciate it!

I'm prepared to spend a good couple of hours getting the tone and mic placement right before I actually start now, and I'll definitely go into it with your tips in mind :) particularly keeping the gain low. I would probably have kept it pretty high, being the loud-junkie I am.

Miroslav - that's a great tip about test tracks! It seems obvious but I would have never thought of that for myself. I would have even forgotten that I can just speak into the mic to record the placement details :)

I've had a bit of a play with the amp so far, and have noticed there's a fair bit of hum when I get the kind of distortion I'm after... anything I can do to manage the hum, other than find a mic placement where it's not as noticeable (or change the settings)?

Thanks again!
 
Don't confuse gain and volume. You may want fairly high volume to stress the speaker in ways that are a big part of the sound. What you don't want is too much distortion/overdrive sound. Normally, what sounds right to the player sounds too washed out when reproduced. So set the input gain to get the amount of distortion you like then lower it significantly. Then turn the master volume up to a level that stresses the speaker. Do test recordings with different settings until you find the sweet spot for input and output levels.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Don't confuse gain and volume.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've never been that clear on the difference really. I mean in the context of a guitar amp I get that the volume controls the loudness while the gain controls the level of distortion, but it seems that elsewhere the terms get used fairly interchangeably, which confuses me.

From the theory I've learnt, the gain is like the max output of an amplifier, while the volume would be where along that line you actually decide to sit (something like that?). I don't really get how that relates to distortion/overdrive though... this sounds really newby, even to me. Sigh.

Thanks bouldersoundguy :)
 
some amps have volume and gain, other just volume, or other names for it. Tube amps distort the louder the volume gets (by driving the power tubes). The gain is another way of getting a different sort of distortion (usually driving the preamp tubes). So an increase in volume or gain can add distortion. Just play with them, depending on the amp you can get loud (with lots of volume and low gain) without too much distortion. Find what you like by messing with both knobs and see what they do.
 
Think of the amp as having an in door and an out door.

Gain is at the in door and determines how loud the signal passing through the amp will be. High gain will overdrive the circuit and distort.

Volume is at the out door and determines how loud you want the signal that leaves the amp to be.
 
spend a lot of time moving the mic around at different distances, different angles, from the speaker.
try the center...
then try the edge.

somewhere in there, is a 'sweet spot'.
you have to find it.


you also have to be able to get away from the source (the amp) and be able to listen to ONLY what the MIC is hearing (who cares what it sounds like in the room, the sound you're gonna get, is the sound that the mic is hearing, and if you can't differentiate what the monitors or cans are putting out, versus the sound in the room, you'll NEVER figure it out.
 
GONZO-X said:
somewhere in there, is a 'sweet spot'.
you have to find it.
Click to expand...

This has been my struggle. Every time I bump a mic stand, it's like pulilng teeth getting it back in the sweet spot. Being the guitarist/recording engineer makes it that much worse... my ears are bleeding.
 
Thanks again for the advice, everyone.

I spent most the day yesterday trying to get the tone and mic placement right and record some stuff. I did as miroslav suggested and recorded several samples of different setups to compare them and ended up basing my recordings on what I discovered there.

And as several (notable Steenamaroo) suggested, turning the gain down from where it sounded best worked a treat.

That all being said, when I did record it, it sounded ok through my headphones at the time, but reviewing it later, I'm not as convinced. Would anyone be happy to give me a critique if I put up the tracks as recorded? It'd be good to get some feedback before touching it at the mixing console, so I can quality control each step in the 'garbage in, garbage out' process I've currently got going ;)

If someone will, what's the best way to get the sound to ya? (I'm nearly as bad with internet as I am with music...) Will 44.1/16 bit mp3s be ok, and how should I actually upload them or link you to them or whatever (Sorry, I've never made anything publicly available before, so no idea how it's done).
 
Sifunkle said:
Would anyone be happy to give me a critique if I put up the tracks as recorded? ... how should I actually upload them or link you to them or whatever ...
Click to expand...

I don't mind critiquing them but you know better than me exactly what sound you are searching for.

If you have some web space, put your MP3 files there and link to each one. If you have a SoundCloud account, link to the songs there. If you don't have any web space, either get 2GB space for free at Dropbox (click here to use my referral and we both get and extra 250MB free) or look for similar.
 
Thanks for the offer Capriccio! (and anyone else who feels like doing me a favour). I made a SoundCloud account to share them on:

Sifunkle's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

They're the only 2 tracks on there, representing 2 different guitar sounds I wanted for the song.

I'm mostly looking for feedback on the recording aspect, so I just uploaded the tracks completely untouched (other than rearranging to put them in slight context).

I've put descriptions of what I was aiming for on their respective SoundCloud pages. Would really appreciate anyone's feedback on:

-Whether you think I achieved what I was going for, and overall quality
-Anything I monumentally stuffed up
-Suggestions for improvement

:) Feel free to comment on what you think of the actual music too, if you're that way inclined, not that it's anywhere near completion.

I did notice, when I played them back on my laptop that I got a fair bit of crackle, but when I turned the laptop's volume down I didn't get it, so I'm assuming that's just dicey speakers, unless someone thinks otherwise.

Really appreciated it in advance!
 
Forgot to mention that I raised the peak level up to 0 dBFS for the mp3s I linked above: I did leave some headroom when I recorded (I think the tracks peaked at roughly -10 dBFS before I adjusted).
 
:( No one?

Sorry, I don't want to be pushy or impatient. I'll have to return to studying in 3 days though and won't have time for music for another semester :(
 
Sifunkle said:
Would really appreciate anyone's feedback on:
-Whether you think I achieved what I was going for, and overall quality
-Anything I monumentally stuffed up
-Suggestions for improvement
Click to expand...

They sound like the descriptions so I am guessing they might be what you are after but only you will know when you are happy with the sound.

The quality sounded alright. The first track distorted in places but I am guessing that is the MP3 peaking at over 0db from your comments on the recording level.

I wouldn't say you stuffed up but saying, "I'm assuming that's just dicey speakers," suggests that you didn't listen to these through your studio monitors. laptop speakers will be one of the later listening tests to check that your mixes translate well to the usual listening environments including iPods, laptops, cars and headphones.

My suggestion would be to record guitars without reverb. It just my personal choice. You can add more reverb later on but you cannot take it away if there is too much.
 
Capriccio - thank you so much for the feedback!! Really appreciate it!

It's nice to be told I'm (sort of) on the right track :)

Just to clarify, you think the distortion on the first track is just a few ventures over the 0 dBFS line at the mp3 stage, because I barely left any headroom?

Regrettably, I don't have studio monitors at the moment, so I have to go with my laptop speakers or the headphones I use for tracking, which are quite bass heavy :( I sort of like the idea of mixing through my laptop to start with though: my idea is that I'll learn more if I figure out how to get good results from not-so-good equipment. (Although I understand the acid test is whether it will sound good on other systems, which the laptop alone will say nothing about.)

I have KRK Rokit 8's on my wishlist, but I think it'll be a while until I scrape that sort of money together :(

I think you're right about the reverb too. I should have done that clean. I have a Pantheon plugin I should really get the hang of.

Thanks again, so nice of you to do a favour for a stranger! :) I'd like to reciprocate (to you and the forum in general), but I don't think my opinions have much weight at this stage. I'm a bit shy to suggest answers to people's problems as I'll most likely be wrong.
 
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