57 on the snare

[Bulls Hit]

So let's pretend I'm playing drums on Led Zeppelin's reunion album. We're in the $10,000 a day studio, they've got the best of everything. The kits all mic'd up and there's an SM57 (yes they have 57s in this studio) on the snare. This thing's running through a $3000 preamp, Apogee converters, the best of the best into Pro Tools or whatever.

When we play back the snare track (of course this being my thread the drumming is Godlike and amazing) what would it sound like? Will it actually sound like someone hitting a snare drum, or would it just be that silly popping noise I get in my room at home that I have to EQ and compress the bejesus out of just to get something that vaguely resembles what a snare actually sounds like?

[timboZ]

Who will be playing drums on this Led Zeppelin's reunion album?

[RAMI]

I'm not sure what you're asking, Bull. Are you asking whether it's possible to get a good snare sound with a 57?

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by timboZ

Who will be playing drums on this Led Zeppelin's reunion album?

Well this is my thread, so that would have to be me

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by RAMI

I'm not sure what you're asking, Bull. Are you asking whether it's possible to get a good snare sound with a 57?

What I'm asking is can the big guys get a sound from a 57 that could be used as is with little or no EQ or compression ?

The reason I ask is that the sound I get from a 57 on my snare doesn't begin to sound like a snare until I've processed the crap out of it. I'm wondering if this is due to poor micing technique, or something lacking in the recording chain

[bodaddy]

What have you done to the snare to make it record ready? I use a 57 on our snare and it sounds like a great snare. And then I EQ to taste.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

So let's pretend I'm playing drums on Led Zeppelin's reunion album. We're in the $10,000 a day studio, they've got the best of everything. The kits all mic'd up and there's an SM57 (yes they have 57s in this studio) on the snare. This thing's running through a $3000 preamp, Apogee converters, the best of the best into Pro Tools or whatever.

When we play back the snare track (of course this being my thread the drumming is Godlike and amazing) what would it sound like? Will it actually sound like someone hitting a snare drum, or would it just be that silly popping noise I get in my room at home that I have to EQ and compress the bejesus out of just to get something that vaguely resembles what a snare actually sounds like?

If like you say, everything is set up perfect with perfect playing and perfect gear, then you could stick a $10 mic on the snare and it would sound good.
The source is the most important thing (the snare in this case) then its the player, then the gear.

Eck

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

What I'm asking is can the big guys get a sound from a 57 that could be used as is with little or no EQ or compression ?

The reason I ask is that the sound I get from a 57 on my snare doesn't begin to sound like a snare until I've processed the crap out of it. I'm wondering if this is due to poor micing technique, or something lacking in the recording chain

I can pretty much guarantee the problem is your snare.
Might be a cheap crappy snare, might have old skins on it, might not be tuned properly, might be a loose snare rattle, or could be all of these factors.

Eck

[PhiloBeddoe]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

When we play back the snare track (of course this being my thread the drumming is Godlike and amazing) what would it sound like? Will it actually sound like someone hitting a snare drum, or would it just be that silly popping noise I get in my room at home that I have to EQ and compress the bejesus out of just to get something that vaguely resembles what a snare actually sounds like?

Assuming that the snare itself sounds 'godlike'...

Overhead and room mics are at least as important as the close mic for a snare sound. So the nice studio room will probably beat your home studio in that respect. The close mic SM57 may sound similar both places, but the rooms will probably be completely different. The big studio will probably not leave the SM57 unprocessed either, so don't feel bad that you have to process it.

[mixsit]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

... that silly popping noise I get in my room at home that I have to EQ and compress the bejesus out of just to get something that vaguely resembles what a snare actually sounds like?

Sounds like a position problem. Are you up on the head? How about backing it off, down into the side, across the rim, etc?
It's a whole 'nother animal over there.

[ecktronic]

Originally Posted by mixsit

Sounds like a position problem. Are you up on the head? How about backing it off, down into the side, across the rim, etc?
It's a whole 'nother animal over there.

Yeah, try backing the mic away from the snare a bit. It might have a held back sound because its being compressed by the mic capsule. Also try angling the mic as this produces less compression in the capsule (if that is the problem)
I could be totally wrong though.

Eck

[TamaSabian]

Bulls, I have the chance to record 2 or 3 different bands lately using my kit. The guy behind it and his sticks make the difference. You have to add other factors into count, like mic position, type of drumhead, if it´s new or not. How good is your room, etc. In my list the first of those are drummer and snare, a crapy one played by a good drummer can sound good, he will know how to do it. An excellent snare played by a bad drummer can´t sound good IMHO.
TS

[Jimbo Jones]

I always thought you got decent snare sounds, but whatever.

Do you get a lot of hat in your snare track?

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by mixsit

Sounds like a position problem. Are you up on the head? How about backing it off, down into the side, across the rim, etc?
It's a whole 'nother animal over there.

OK I think we're getting somewhere here. I did have the mic right on the rim, and now I've backed it off, maybe 3 inches, and yes it does sound much more snare-like now.

Thanks all

[TexRoadkill]

I've NEVER liked the solo sound of a single snare mic and I've tried a bunch of different mics (but not all the best). I have to also mic the bottom (for more snap) and in the end compress the hell out of both of them. I mainly use the close mic to give some body and with the gates a bit of focus to the snare. The main sound comes from the OH's and room mics.

The single most important element of a killer snare sound is the room. If I have a well tuned snare, good drummer in a great room I usually only have to compress and gate the snare. I maybe add a little EQ around 3-5k to add a little more definition if I need it.

Everytime I use a 57 on anything in a shitty room situation I end up hating the 57. Once the room is good the 57 suddenly sounds much better.

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by TexRoadkill

I

Everytime I use a 57 on anything in a shitty room situation I end up hating the 57. Once the room is good the 57 suddenly sounds much better.

But this is what I don't get. When the snare is close mic'd, how much of the room are you going to hear?

[Han]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

But this is what I don't get. When the snare is close mic'd, how much of the room are you going to hear?

When you solo the snare mic you won't hear any room sound, but the overall snare sound is a combination of the snare mic, the OH mics and eventually the room mics (I use a stereo pair for room).

And that's where the room comes in.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Han

When you solo the snare mic you won't hear any room sound, but the overall snare sound is a combination of the snare mic, the OH mics and eventually the room mics (I use a stereo pair for room).

And that's where the room comes in.

Amen. The room is VERY important. As is the Drummer. The snare is really not nearly as important in my experience, but tuning IS.

Also, think of the kit as one instrument. My snare sound comes from at minimum six mics. (Top, bottom, OHL, OHR, RoomR, RoomL) ANd actually, more sound comes from the OH's than the actual snare track.......

One last thing, if you are recording in a small room, you should check out T.Blakes forum over at GS. He is the only well known person I have heard of that PREFERS small drum rooms. YMMV.

[Bulls Hit]

Thanks for the replies, but my original question was specifically concerned with the snare mic only, and what it captures.

What I'm finding is I need to position the mic a good 3 - 4 inches off the rim to get something that starts to sound pleasant and realistic. Any closer than this, and it's just a kind of a popping noise that doesn't even really sound like a snare

[MadHatterTCM]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

Thanks for the replies, but my original question was specifically concerned with the snare mic only, and what it captures.

What I'm finding is I need to position the mic a good 3 - 4 inches off the rim to get something that starts to sound pleasant and realistic. Any closer than this, and it's just a kind of a popping noise that doesn't even really sound like a snare

The deal is this - the mic picks up what you point it at. Your ears sit a good what.. 2-3 feet above the snare itself. When you hit a snare you hear a snare mic 3 feet below you and the rest of what you hear (a good portion) is how the room reflects the snare sound. When you have a mic an inch away from the snare itself..it's picking up what your ears would hear an inch away from the same space. The snare sound you're used to is compiled of the sounds from the top head, the bottom head, the walls, the ceilings.... and so on and so on.. so one microphone really close, will never sound exactly like what you hear from the drum throne - which is why the 1 single sm57 doesn't sound exactly like a snare, but only part of the snare. This is also why people are telling you the room mics and room play a part of what your snare sounds like in a recording.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by MadHatterTCM

The deal is this - the mic picks up what you point it at. Your ears sit a good what.. 2-3 feet above the snare itself. When you hit a snare you hear a snare mic 3 feet below you and the rest of what you hear (a good portion) is how the room reflects the snare sound. When you have a mic an inch away from the snare itself..it's picking up what your ears would hear an inch away from the same space. The snare sound you're used to is compiled of the sounds from the top head, the bottom head, the walls, the ceilings.... and so on and so on.. so one microphone really close, will never sound exactly like what you hear from the drum throne - which is why the 1 single sm57 doesn't sound exactly like a snare, but only part of the snare. This is also why people are telling you the room mics and room play a part of what your snare sounds like in a recording.

Excellent post! Rep for you!

[Bulls Hit]

Originally Posted by MadHatterTCM

This is also why people are telling you the room mics and room play a part of what your snare sounds like in a recording.

Yes thanks Madhatter I know about the room mics and the room. I have both and use them almost on a daily basis. I'm not asking how to get a good snare sound. All I really wanted to know is if a 57 up close on a snare in a $10K/day studio sounded similar in it's raw unprocessed state to how it does at my place.

[NL5]

Originally Posted by Bulls Hit

Yes thanks Madhatter I know about the room mics and the room. I have both and use them almost on a daily basis. I'm not asking how to get a good snare sound. All I really wanted to know is if a 57 up close on a snare in a $10K/day studio sounded similar in it's raw unprocessed state to how it does at my place.

In my experience, the top snare mic doesn't sound like how a finished snare sounds in a mix, but at the same time, I don't need to compress it or really even eq it to get a decent sound from it "in the mix".

Is that what you were looking for?

[Han]

Although the SM57 is a standard snare mic and it can produce a very decent snare sound, you have to consider this: it sounds a bit boomy close to the snare, so you better put it not too close. But when the drummer is a hat basher you're in trouble because the hat bleed into the 57 doesn't sound good.

A really good drummer is his weight worth in gold here, but when you have to deal with this hat basher, you'd better use another mic like the Beyer M201 or the Sennheiser MD441.

These mics are hyper and super cardioid so there's less bleed plus that bleed is sounding much better.

[scorpio01169]

since no one will answer his question....i will and the answer is yes it does. but that being said those studios have engineers that have nothing else to do but spend a little time positioning mics' the get a combination of the two.. meaning that pop and a brite snary sound. you can too if you play with positions and not settling with the first place you put it. also if you get that pop sound just put a pencil condencer on the bottom of the snare drum pointed at the snares then get a mixture of the two you could get good results.