Studio Monitors

[miroslav]

I think I last used my 12-inch sub around 1994 ? As far as I can tell, bass 'n kick on the streets is still popular : )

Right...it's definitely a more modern/recent phenomenon, the use of subs....much of it being driven by some modern music genres that heavily depend on the sub-lows for their signature sound. The other reason is the heavier use of smaller mixing monitors that substantially roll off the low end, making a sub necessary.

That aside...if you look at the majority of recorded music, it was probably mixed without a dedicated subs...I mean, it really is largely a music genre thing that pushed sub use into the mainstream.

TBH...I don't believe mastering engineers ever use them...where critical monitoring is very important...but then, they usually have very, very high end monitor systems that probably don't need help from a sub to deliver the goods.

I think in the end, it's more about personal taste and how you like to hear things.

 

[RFR]

Subs are for home theater systems so all your neighbors can hear AND feel the boom from explosions.

A pro studio has no need for one, and your average home studio is too small for one.


But then again, there are those that love the boom, boom. One can't help but listen to all the morons driving by playing Hip Hop in their cars.
You can hear em a block away

 

[garww]

"Subs are for home theater systems so all your neighbors can hear AND feel the boom from explosions".

Well that's partially why I built mine. First was digital and deep bass. And just after that it was All Quiet On the Western Front in Hi-Fi(1930) and Silverado
https://youtu.be/Ciq9ts02ci4

 

[jimmys69]

Subs are for home theater systems so all your neighbors can hear AND feel the boom from explosions.

A pro studio has no need for one, and your average home studio is too small for one.


But then again, there are those that love the boom, boom. One can't help but listen to all the morons driving by playing Hip Hop in their cars.
You can hear em a block away

Bullshit and I disagree with your comment as to 'a pro studio has no need for one'. That is completely not true and as to the 'average home studio', well yeah, maybe. But then I would give a huge Not!

Are you guys high on some shit?

If you do not have the ability to hear frequencies that your monitors are not capable of producing, then you are just guessing what you are hearing. That is true for all genres. Not just hip hop or EDM. I don't even know or care what that is.

I know that I wish to hear everything at all frequencies. Whether acoustic singer stuff or hip hop. I would be an idiot if I thought I could 'guess' what frequencies were there and tell a client 'oh well, those frequencies are for other people'. What the fuck is that?


I may just be grumpy today, but if you think hearing sub 50hz isn't necessary in a professional level, then you are not paying attention and I surely wouldn't trust your mixes.

 

[RFR]

Whoa! Back off a bit jimmy, you are a bit grumpy today.
I had no idea that post pissed you off so bad.

As to pro studios, I've been to plenty in Los Angeles, and never seen a sub. The soffit mounted big boys are plenty to hear all frequencies. Speakers that few of us can afford.

What's crawled up your butt? For being a mod, you sure act like us heathens sometimes.

As to my mixes, well there may be issues with them that people have pointed out, but problems in the bass hasn't ever been one that was mentioned. No one has ever said "dood, your mix is all fucked up in the bottom end, you must not use a sub".

 

[Pinky]

As to pro studios, I've been to plenty in Los Angeles, and never seen a sub. The soffit mounted big boys are plenty to hear all frequencies. Speakers that few of us can afford.

That was my point several posts back - very few home recorders can afford that level of quality. And we wouldn't be expected to, at this level of production. So one way to work around the limitations is to add a sub.

Your post attempted to completely invalidate that, and Jimmy would be correct for calling that BS.

 

[miroslav]

... if you think hearing sub 50hz isn't necessary in a professional level, then you are not paying attention and I surely wouldn't trust your mixes.

Thing is...you said you would be surprised that pros would say they didn't want a sub....and I think that's really different than saying pros want to hear sub-50 Hz.
Point being...most good pro monitors go below 50Hz. Even my Mackies are flat down to 37Hz...and then a soft roll off below that.
And yes, in pro studios where they have big wall monitors, they can also hear that...so there really isn't a need for a separate sub in those cases.

When you're monitors start to roll off at 80 Hz or similar...then yes, you are right, you need the sub, and also even if your monitors are flat down to 40 Hz and then roll off...some people want to add the sub if they do a lot of material that uses those sub lows as its signature sound...like EDM (Electronic Dance Music, since you said you don't know what that is), or Dubstep, Hip-Hop...etc.
For those genres, it's ALL about the low end...and it really needs to rumble.

TBH...except for maybe stuff like Post Rock, where there's a lot of slow moving ambient stuff, with low tuned drums, etc....most Pop/Rock/Country/Indie mixers tend to roll off most of the stuff below 80Hz by default, which I don't agree with most times, but the modern sound these days is more about edgy and bright for those genres.

I also know that some pros with subs, don't actually mix with them...they just turn them on occasionally, usually as crowd pleasers, or just to confirm what the sub lows are doing. I think that's because there's a lot of perspectives about the negative effect of too much lows all the time...especially in non-perfect rooms that can't handle them without any negative effects.

That was my point several posts back - very few home recorders can afford that level of quality. And we wouldn't be expected to, at this level of production. So one way to work around the limitations is to add a sub.

Your post attempted to completely invalidate that, and Jimmy would be correct for calling that BS.

I think we already said earlier that home setups with less then ideal monitors use subs primarily to overcome that...and that good monitors in decent spaces don't necessarily need them. Jimmy did imply that they are needed regardless, and that all pros use them, or that he would be surprised that some didn't.

I'm not trying to stir this...but lets be clear about who said what.

 

[garww]

Well, ported systems can take a dive under their low end rating, but acoustic suspension boxes don't have that drop-off.

Anyway, I can take the Twins Sales Rep's grasp of the mix world without much consteration.

When I re-coned the 8-inch monitors my measurement MIC had a broad hump from something like 100 to 30 ?? The plot is on a machine that's not bootable, but it has substantial bass on a single box. MFG rating is 50 to 22, but keep in mind they don't design Acoustic Suspension boxes to sound like Bass-Reflex boxes. I think the only "trick" besides the Olefin cones and domes is the double mounting baffel

 

[garww]

It's not just about lows. With dinky boxes and a higher x-over, it's about offloading the MUD inducing freqs resulting in lower distortions and smearing. Outside of the EDM-type situation, that is the primary reason to get a "bass helper" for those dinky 5-inch, 2-way. If one is wanting to add some synth pads or low strings to create MUD as body weight, having that lower distortion will help a lot.

 

[Pinky]

I'm not trying to stir this...but lets be clear about who said what.

We can agree every couple months. See you in a couple months.

 

[Pinky]

TBH...except for maybe stuff like Post Rock, where there's a lot of slow moving ambient stuff, with low tuned drums, etc....most Pop/Rock/Country/Indie mixers tend to roll off most of the stuff below 80Hz by default, which I don't agree with most times, but the modern sound these days is more about edgy and bright for those genres.

Typically I roll off those lowest frequencies on tracks I don't expect needing them, like vocals and most guitars. I'd imagine what many engineers do, who don't have the ability to actually hear those lowest frequencies, is they trust their EQ'ing has handled any conflicts and issues. For engineers working in genres or with bands needing accuracy in those lowest frequencies, they likely have monitors capable of producing the frequencies or have added a sub [that they may or may not use at all times, perhaps just switching it on when desired].

While the last 10 pages of this thread are all academic, we are definitely getting further from the median home recording member/user as we discuss monitors capable of accurately reproducing below 50 or 60hz. Without a revenue source to justify the purchase of more expensive monitors, most people can't/won't financially justify spending that money on a hobby. Wealthy members will, and those who get paid on the side for their work might. Most won't. The sub suggestion applies to most.

Whether or not someone has properly setup their studio by applying any sound proofing is a side topic, as they would or would not anyway regardless if a sub is part of the equation. This was mentioned earlier and it seems to only distract from whether the sub is being of use/necessity. Just because it needs to be worked into the mixing space doesn't mean it has to be (or should be) avoided. So do monitors, mics, etc.

 

[miroslav]

It's not just about lows. With dinky boxes and a higher x-over, it's about offloading the MUD inducing freqs resulting in lower distortions and smearing. Outside of the EDM-type situation, that is the primary reason to get a "bass helper" for those dinky 5-inch, 2-way. If one is wanting to add some synth pads or low strings to create MUD as body weight, having that lower distortion will help a lot.

Not sure what the Twins Sales Rep has to do with anything here...I mean, you can bounce around a variety of pro audio sites, and get direct comments from those guys. This has nothing to do with some "sales pitch"...it's about what people are actually doing and using.

And again...if we ARE talking about " dinky 5-inch, 2-way" monitors...then there's really no argument about getting a sub to help, other than you better place it correctly, and your room needs to work well with it, otherwise it will cause more harm than good.
Of course, one way around the that, is to just get something other than " dinky 5-inch, 2-way" monitors.

I mean...there are relatively inexpensive larger monitors that can cover the low-end...and cost-wise, it's about the same as buying the dinky ones...and then adding the sub.
My Mackies are not that expensive...and don't need a sub. There are other models.

Of course, the last discussion really isn't about financial limitations...it was more about the absolute need for subs in any studio situation.

See you in a couple months.

Don't tease me like that.

 

[garww]

.."Twins Sales Rep"..

DIDN"T THE REP ASK IF YOU were doing hip_hop/EDM, and then suggest you didn't need a sub ? People in sales will see a pattern. Any fool can plop their 5-inch, 2-way ( or 30-inch EV cab) face down into a pillow to see what the bass is. With my ports stuffed, my 5-inch are good to 40Hz ish. I think that was something like USD 110-130 shipped for used boxes coming out of a home studio upgrade.

 

[miroslav]

Yes, he asked that...but it had more to do with my questions about the Focal monitors...I mean, it wasn't some sales pitch mumbo jumbo.
If anything....if it was a sales pitch...he would be pushing the Sub.

His point was...the basic Focal Twin6 monitors go down low enough for everything except for like EDM/Hop, where you live in the sub lows well below 40 Hz as the main focus of your mixing.

One thing I find funny in all this...is that most of the home rec types will argue against pro gear necessity, because they're doing it for "fun" or the other one, that everyone is listening on earbuds and iPods, so why worry about audio quality...
...yet they'll talk about sub-lows, that you will never hear on those same devices.

IMO...the real problem for properly mixing the low end has little to do with sub-lows and more to do with mid-lows, which most monitor systems CAN reproduce, it's just about how they do that. My Mackies had plenty of the sub-lows, which seemed to mask the low-mids...whereas these Focal Twins, right out of the box, immediately uncluttered that area...and they also do the same for the upper stuff...and then the real lows are much more defined and tight, as opposed to just a big "woof".

 

[garww]

"His point was"

Ya, I got that right off the bat, but it is that same story over decades and decades, now.

Haha I remember the studio PIC of the sub right at the head level. He said he didn't have anywhere else to put it. I told Brandon at the grave site that he would get better results if he sat on his sub. hahhahah I think he was up to four feet in bass traps

 

[garww]

People can give this '79 pressing on CD and LP a go to check their bass system. Should be this early pressing with this picture and WARNING.

There's plenty of others like Bach on Cathedral Organ, etc., but this is quick rise time dynamics

 

[miroslav]

I told Brandon at the grave site that he would get better results if he sat on his sub. hahhahah I think he was up to four feet in bass traps

Private Parts Radio Live Orgasm scene - videoup.org - Lots of videos online, share freely!

 

[songsj]

Just ordered a pair of Yamaha HS8, anyone here use them? How are they?

 

[Pinky]

Just ordered a pair of Yamaha HS8, anyone here use them? How are they?

I referenced them when monitor shopping a couple years ago (around the time they were released). They were serious contenders. They're also similar to what I use now (8" Samson). For the price they're a very well rounded monitor. They were decently flat, which is of course much of the point in having monitors (least amount of coloring of the sound as possible). I wouldn't hesitate to own them if my budget was tight. JBL also makes a good lower end monitor, I've seen several here mention them in their posts. I recall hearing them elsewhere, but don't remember anything particular about them. Likely similar to the HS8.

Many of these 6, 7, and 8" lower end monitors hitting the market lately are a huge step up from prior attempts at delivering monitors at that price point (under $800 /pair).

 

[miroslav]

So I just wanted to follow-up like I said I would on my new Focal Twin6 Be monitors now that I had a chance to use them for about 10 days, and also now that I've completed the initial break-in process, as recommended.
I probably spent at least 30 hours breaking them in...they recommend at least 10, most people say about 20, though a lot depends on how loud you monitor.
The break-in started with about 10 hours of wide dynamic range music at moderate listening levels...so I ran through most of my Classical music CDs...then maybe about 10 hours of more punchier Rock stuff at higher moderate levels...and finally lots of low-end Dance/Trance at loud levels (I wasn't in the room)...about 3/4 up of the monitors' capability, or to the point where the speaker movement was visible.

I was pleasantly surprised how much the low end opened up at the end. Initially, out of the box, it was super tight...and after the break-in, it loosened up, but not in a bad/sloppy way...instead it just became thicker/heavier sounding, but still very defined.
All the doubt I had, that the smaller 6.5 speakers might not give me that thick low end...were wiped away. These babies have as much low-end as my Mackie HR824 monitors when they are turned up. At low levels, maybe a pinch less depth than the Mackies, which have the passive radiator in the back that gives them the extra bit of depth, considering I have them close to the front wall...but once the Focals are turned up a bit, their low end depth blooms out, and it does so without muddying up the sound and loading up the room...where the Mackies at louder levels would get too bassy in my space.

I know the Focal Twin6 are not going to fit everyone's budget...and I never planned on buying them, but after using the Mackies for almost 15 years now, I really wanted to take it up a notch, and I was originally looking at the Adam A7X or the Focal Solo6 monitors as my step up from the Mackies...but the 0% financing for 36 months made the Twins too tempting to resist, and I'm so glad I bit the bullet and got them instead. I've gone through a few monitors over the years, and figured I owed myself at least one set of high-end monitors during my years of recording.

I think there are a lot of monitors that can be used to mix on with good results if you learn them...it's just that the better ones maybe get you there a bit easier...but still, there's no magic in the monitors...you can mess up a mix regardless of them...though these Focals are more revealing in the low-mid trouble zone, which I always had to fight with on the Mackies, so I'm expecting them to be a big help with the mixing.
For now, I'm going to keep the Mackies...just 'cuz my setup looks real good with both the Mackies and the Focals side-by-side...but I may sell them at some point, as I doubt I will be even turning them on that much any more.

Oh...almost forgot...so the cool thing about the Twin6 monitors is that you can place them in several positions, and you can also change which of the two 6.5" speakers acts as your mids-lows and your lows.
I started with them horizontal...lows in, mid-lows out...tweeter on top. I didn't try them with the tweeter on bottom, no point to that, IMO. I then tried with the lows out...and that wasn't as good.
Then I went vertical with them...lows on top, mid-lows on bottom...tweeter in...and then same thing, tweeter out. Then I switched the lows to the bottom, and mid-low to the top...again tweeter in and then tweeter out.

I finally settled on the vertical position, lows on top, mid-low on bottom and tweeter outside....and then I ran across some comments on another site where someone said that Bob Hodas, who does acoustic analysis and room tuning, set them up that same way. Granted, it was for different room...but that's also how they sounded best to me in my studio.
The horizontal position, low in, mid-low out, tweeter on top would be my other choice. In that position the stereo image almost embraces you, but in the vertical position there is much better left/right definition, since you have both speaker and tweeter in line on the same L/R plane...where horizontally, those elements are spread out L/R.
Plus in the vertical position, the sound is more 3D...with the added height of the monitors. Also, vertically, the mid-point between the mid-low speaker and tweeter is exactly at my ear level...where horizontally, it's an inch or so lower, which I could have compensated for with another layer of decoupling under the monitors...but the vertical position was such a clear winner, so it all fell into place just right.

Anyway...if you have the desire to go for something much higher-end in monitors...highly recommend the Focal Twin6...though of course, you can go even much higher than them, but that's for some other time...after the lottery.

Miro, you need to throw up a current picture of your desk with those new bad boys!

I said I would post once I decided on the position...so here you go.