Auto-Mixing...you knew it was coming...

I can sum up my feelings on this topic in one sentence.
We live in a society where people have to 'Have Before They Can Do'.

Exactly. People don't want to give up to have. They don't want to wait to have. They just want. It's why so many young kids are over their heads in debt and then filing bankruptcy because they don't want to be responsible for the debt on things they've already broken...
I've made a decent (in my opinion) attempt at learning how to make mixes. In the last two years mine have gone from total crap to mostly crap, but I'm making progress. Forget giving up the learning curve. I want to know HOW to do something.
I didn't do piano concertos by age 11 by starting at age 11. I started at 4 and was bored stiff with the basics, but once you have the basics, it's not long. Recording my music will come with time, patience and applying (and expanding on) the basics.

GET OFF MY LAWN!
 
BroketH, I think this plugin was geared toward less experienced users. And thats ok. I see nothing wrong with a new user paying $200 for opportunity to gain perspective on signal chain options. If you got that plugin, apply it, A/B your source, then go into the plugin and dissect WHY and HOW the plugin made the source sound better, that is worth $200. If you then dissect WHY it works on some tracks and WHY IT DOESN'T work on others, that's worth $200.

Some of the other statements presuppose it would only be used as a crutch. And it will put us all out of work. Couldn't be further from the truth. That plugin is nowhere near intelligent enough to mix an entire song. It could bandaid some parts of an amateur mix, but in the process, my hope is that it'll teach some of its users to develop their technical understanding and critical listening skills to where it will eventually not be needed.

For some hobbyist, amateur, home recording guys (however you call it), this plugin is going to help them a lot more than reading every page of a Massenburg treatise on EQ circuity. Traditional learning approaches eventually become outdated. And some guys are just flat out wrong, who tell you that you need to have experience on an analog console and tape machines to really grasp what good ITB technique entails. Wrong wrong wrong.

This plugin is not hurting the art of mixing or the users. Thats almost like saying training wheels on bicycles are bad. If a kid never looses the training wheels, the problem is with the kid, not the bike.
 
I'll mention one other thing, even if someone never uses the artificial intelligence tool, it's still worth $200 as a plugin :D The plugin itself has some pretty nice sounding DSP.
 
Well...you're looking at it from the perspective that it will simply be a stepping stone..."training wheels"...and then people will move away from it and do the mixing manually once they've learned.

I see totally the opposite.
The people who potentially can use this simply as a "reference check", just to see what the plugin comes up with, and then actually do the work themselves...are most likely people who already know enough about mixing to not need this plugin.
The rest will use this as their crutch...because it is going to be convenient and fast...two of the main "features" that most recording newbs look for. Also...you need to first understand what you are looking at when you see the actions of the plugin. It certainly can be overwhelming to a newb...which is another reason for them to just accept the preset results.

Sure...they can sell it as some sort of "educational" tool...but very few people want to really get into the technical shit...to learn...to understand...to develop their skills anymore.
It's just about instant gratification...AND...the belief that computers somehow always know e better, so if a programmed preset tells you this is the best it came up with, those people will accept it...or at most, punch up another preset.
 
I think miro's right because that's what we see in here every single day. You see it at other sites too. People new to this hobby lately generally don't want to take the time to study, learn, apply, practice, and get better. They want results and they want them now.
 
I think miro's right because that's what we see in here every single day. You see it at other sites too. People new to this hobby lately generally don't want to take the time to study, learn, apply, practice, and get better. They want results and they want them now.

Example?
 
Well...you're looking at it from the perspective that it will simply be a stepping stone..."training wheels"...and then people will move away from it and do the mixing manually once they've learned.

I see totally the opposite.
The people who potentially can use this simply as a "reference check", just to see what the plugin comes up with, and then actually do the work themselves...are most likely people who already know enough about mixing to not need this plugin.
The rest will use this as their crutch...because it is going to be convenient and fast...two of the main "features" that most recording newbs look for. Also...you need to first understand what you are looking at when you see the actions of the plugin. It certainly can be overwhelming to a newb...which is another reason for them to just accept the preset results.

Sure...they can sell it as some sort of "educational" tool...but very few people want to really get into the technical shit...to learn...to understand...to develop their skills anymore.
It's just about instant gratification...AND...the belief that computers somehow always know e better, so if a programmed preset tells you this is the best it came up with, those people will accept it...or at most, punch up another preset.

I see a crutch as a good thing in this case, and I'll explain why. This particular crutch is going to start to fail the user. The AI isn't smart enough to mix an entire song, and its going to act very inconsistent across a range of diverse mixes. As the user starts to realize this, they'll be forced to move beyond what its capable of. Its not going to enable a lazy unmotivated person to make a stellar mix.

I don't blame people for not wanting to learn this stuff. Some people are musicians, not engineers. But they are forced to reconcile their careers and incomes with the reality that musicians live in the same digital world everyone else does. Thats almost like telling an engineer not to use BFD, Slate, or Addictive, and that they should go learn how to play the drums themselves, if they need to shoot a track once in a while. I really do think that for a spoken-word voiceover talent, or a musician who only occasionally needs to track something, to be expected to learn the ins/outs of engineering is impractical.

A crutch is designed to help someone get on their feet and start doing ~something~ rather than nothing at all. A kid with mediocre natural balance needs those training wheels at first. To me there is a very obvious limit to what the AI of this program can't do. Neutron

Even for an career engineer, why is 'fast' and 'convenient' a problem? Take the Waves Greg Wells piano plugin. You have a knob. You turn it left, or right. I can hear a ton of shit going on when you turn it. Your hi-low shelves rise and fall. Multi-band compression curves start to bend. Harmonic saturation and transient envelopes start to permeate the source. So...like...if most of that stuff is junk I'd be doing anyway, what the hell is the point in setting up 10 plugins across 4 parallel busses? The obvious answer is control. But at times the waves all-in-one plugins fit the source so dang well, there isn't anything I'd want to change, even if I could. At this point, the conversation is pretty un-related to the izotope AI discussion, but even with programmed presets, at minimum, the user has to have the intuition to know when the preset even sounds good in the first place.

If the whole premise of your response was that laziness = sucks, then I absolutely agree. Hands down. But I guess I see more potential in that AI than Toontracks EZ mix2.


ps...if someone made an AI that could automatically cut, edit, crossfade, color code, label, gain-stage, route, and trim up a pro tools session, I'd eat that software for lunch!
 
Miro, in the time I've been on the forum I've heard lots of opinions critical of others, but hardly any music from you. Would you post a recent mix? I would like to hear the craftsmanship and attention to detail that you speak of.
 
No...I've made very little if any critical opinion of other people or of their music...unless I was specifically asked to , like you did a bunch of times.
AFA getting your opinion on my music or my mixes...I honestly couldn't care less....but then, I've told you that more than once, haven't I? :)
Here I'm talking about recording processes and mindsets in general, not people's mixes.
Everyone is free to do whatever they like.

Oh...don't take that personally...it's not about you...and I'm sure one of these days I'll be in the mood and post some stuff up again...
...I just don't sit on command. Bad dog and all that... ;)
 
Yeah...I find call outs amusing.

I know where he was/is coming from...to get me to post up something, and then find ways to at the least say that it was nothing outstanding...and then use that as some argument in favor of auto-mixing or to say that my views about it are not valid because my mixes aren't spectacular, or something like that. :D

The funny thing is...I've never, ever said that my stuff was that much better, and I've never bragged about my mixes while at the same time refusing to post them up.
Never...ever have I done that. So I really don't need to prove anything here.

That said...the actual reality of why I have not posted any mixes in awhile has more to do with my search for a "new" console (which I now have, and it's finally ready for work) than anything else.
Since I mix OTB...I wanted to move from the old console I had to something better.
I was in the hunt for a few years...and this year I found it, installed it, overhauled it (all that is documented over in the Analog forum)....and now I hope to start mixing with it this winter, since I have a bunch of songs that have been sitting in their "pre-mix" stage in my DAW waiting for this console upgrade. :)

Still...I'm kinda past all that posting and looking for comments stuff.
It's just not that important to me....I know when I'm happy with a mix and when it's done...but I'll probably put up something over in the Marketing forum at some point.
 
Fortunately it was a poorly edited vid.
Seductive sales for those who struggle with the con that folk'll use the info to make creative decisions.
there's a lot in that stuff and it covers - as well as renames - skills and tasks that I've been trying to learn.
Learn? learning tool? It'll only be a learning tool when it expires to force the hand to do it without the prompts.
I can see this being THE tool for audio education but it will put the chainsaw into the hands of those who can't/won't use the fretsaw when the fretsaw is needed.
Automix neutronix = generic
That's the other end result that worries me. Corporate sounds for coprophilic people?
I found some of the features interesting in that they visually showed on on dialogue box what I would have up on two or three. The link tool for EQ was interesting because it's SO hard to do set reciprocal EQ isn't it - oh, me brain would hurt.
Ah, middle age male bike riding: buy the expensive bike, buy the cool helmet, buy the Lycra and then learn to rise to the cafe for the latte to discuss the buying process.
 
...middle age male bike riding [wearing] Lycra....

That image is not pleasing...considering how most middle aged men look in spandex. :D

Stuff like spandex, skinny jeans, etc...should come with both age and weight limits.
If you hit either...you can't buy it or wear it.
 
You're wrong about that Miro. When I comment on a mix, I give my opinion of the mix, period. No agendas, no vendettas. I have zero interest in auto-mixing. In fact, I have little interest in mixing per se. But when I hear an opinionated poster such as you are, I want to hear their work too. I want to know where those opinions are coming from, the quality and quantity of work behind them.
 
Everyone must now give links to their recent mixes or be shunned from HR...

LOL!

As a vague way of stating the obvious: we all have different ideas of what is good quality in any genre or recording technique we use personally. None is right or wrong.

Calling out a member to 'prove' something is irrelevant. The advice taken or given is for the member to decide if they agree. Discussion of techniques and approaches to mixing, and less productive-debating is what we do as members with varied experience at recording/mixing/mastering. The latter typically considered as the troll side of behavior. That is not productive for anyone.

Best to take what you want to hear from others comments and ignore what does not work for you. Or put up your Grammy award winning masterpiece that blows away any other members mix. And then go fuck yourself because you made that shit up or you wouldn't be posting on this forum to begin with.

:)

:guitar:
 
Or put up your Grammy award winning masterpiece that blows away any other members mix. And then go fuck yourself because you made that shit up or you wouldn't be posting on this forum to begin with.

:)

:guitar:
Epic line of the week.
:D
 
But when I hear an opinionated poster such as you are, I want to hear their work too. I want to know where those opinions are coming from, the quality and quantity of work behind them.

OK...since you want to go deeper.

When you asked me multiple times to give you my opinion of your mixes...even though I was telling you I don't much care to do that stuff, but you kept sending me links until I must have finally said something you didn't like, and then you stopped...
....you didn't ask me then to provide you with my credentials, you just wanted my opinion.

You don't want to hear my shit any more than I didn't want to hear yours.
This is just you fishing here.

Like I said...one of these days, you'll see something of mine in the Marketing forum...feel free to give whatever opinion you want at that time, but it's not going to happen here in this thread, now. :)
 
Everyone must now give links to their recent mixes or be shunned from HR...

LOL!

Yeah...there was that other guy just recently who got all bent out of shape about people not promoting their music in their sigs...I can't remember the name or the thread....but it was really dumb shit.

I find it amusing that there are still people here who treat it like some competition...or have this need to always measure their stuff against what other people post up, so they're always asking for more people to post their music, or upset that more people don't.

Look...the Clinic is a sideshow for HR. I mean, that isn't the main purpose, for people to post their music and ask for comments. That's just something that got started.
The real purpose here are the discussions about recording, etc...but there was never any expectation or requirement to post your music if/when you give your opinions about recording and such. :D

Heck...there's a lot of guys here who I know haven't hardly ever, or never posted their music...and they've been here giving recording opinions all along.

So basically we have to post up a stellar mix in order to have the right to give our opinions about recording?
Does that mean then that people who post less than stellar mixes should STFU and never post here? :p
 
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