Sooooooo tired of fake drum threads.
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4
4tracker
Guest
I'm not going to argue with you for hours. A drum machine is a tool. Use it for what it is, and if it doesn't get the job done, adjust as needed. It can act as a place holder for real drums, even, if that's the route the writer wants to take. And to your jab, I listen to all music and every genre from every time period.
This ^^^^^^^^
He's saying this stuff because he's looking for certain people to fight him on it..
4
4tracker
Guest
In your head. In reality I'm saying it because it's how I feel.
And Fat_fleet, that's a bizarre edit to add in. Yes, I use samples for now, but I might remove them for real drums at some point. I toured years ago and used a real drummer. I like both. I'd prefer real drums if the drummer has taste and style, and if not, or I need to be quiet while recording, then I'd prefer just programming drums. I also record on analog and digital and use microphones from the 1940s and 2000s. Everything is just a tool, and it ends there for me.
Mr Clean
AKA Teddy Wong
Sampled drums are a means to an end for me. When I can play better, I'll go the "real" drums, mic'd up, route.
A lot of good stuff has come from "one man bands" over the years. Even as far back as the 50's, Eddie Cochran recorded a bunch of instruments by overdubbing himself.
A lot of good stuff has come from "one man bands" over the years. Even as far back as the 50's, Eddie Cochran recorded a bunch of instruments by overdubbing himself.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
No frickin way, I thought he came to spread the word about all the nifty things drum machines can do.
I always thought the weakness was the snare...there are so many little details in the decay, and exactly where it was hit relative to the center of the sking that it takes a ridiculous amount of alternate samples to mimic...
Good to see lots of people in the same 'helping broken dreams' scenario as me :-D, though I would hesitate to do anything for free anymore.
Good to see lots of people in the same 'helping broken dreams' scenario as me :-D, though I would hesitate to do anything for free anymore.
There are countless nuances to playing and recording real drums that most drum programmers don't get because they neither play or record real drums. Both are a dying art in the recording world. A good drummer is hard to find. A good drum recorder is even harder to find. I get that. But I personally find it sad and disgusting that people happily celebrate the death of real drums in recorded music. Especially from people that poo-poo digital recording or claim to also celebrate the live feel of a band or humans playing music. It's a contradiction based in ignorance.
It's hardly something to celebrate, as with the decline of any artform but it's the way things are going (in your opinion) so it's just a case of moving with the times as far as I can see. Great playing has so much more energy, but if the drums aren't the centerpiece of the track programming them can work if you do it well. I don't know where the idea of drumming dying comes from, there are plenty of drummers who are decent through to very good where I live. Maybe you just aren't going to the right bars...
It's alright to like both anyway, you don't have to hate live drums to like some tracks with programmed parts (and vice versa). Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it seems reductive to imply that liking programming for it's practicality/speed/ease of use/sound is mutually exclusive with liking the sound of a good drummer or traditional drum recording.
I never have to use programmed drums these days because I don't write too much of my own stuff now & I turn down 'I have some lyrics+chords and want you to do the rest' jobs because I don't enjoy them.
I record real drums every time, but I wouldn't try and pretend that I will 'hate' music because the drums don't sound 'real' enough for me.
At home people should use whatever they want, it's their music and chances are they're writing for fun.
Edit: this thread is still going? Wow.
It's alright to like both anyway, you don't have to hate live drums to like some tracks with programmed parts (and vice versa). Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it seems reductive to imply that liking programming for it's practicality/speed/ease of use/sound is mutually exclusive with liking the sound of a good drummer or traditional drum recording.
I never have to use programmed drums these days because I don't write too much of my own stuff now & I turn down 'I have some lyrics+chords and want you to do the rest' jobs because I don't enjoy them.
I record real drums every time, but I wouldn't try and pretend that I will 'hate' music because the drums don't sound 'real' enough for me.
At home people should use whatever they want, it's their music and chances are they're writing for fun.
Edit: this thread is still going? Wow.
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Yup. Still going. Hot topic.
Edit: last year at the La. Namm show I went to the Bonzo fest. A three day show sponsored by ludwig, honoring John Bohnam.
Tons of great drummers and a good live sound mixer.
It showed without a doubt how crucial a good drummer is for rock and roll. And you get a real newfound apreciation for live drums.
No machine or programing will ever come close to the vibe, the energy, the interaction, as well as the variations in attack and tone these guys diplayed.
Some of the best of the best were there and it amazed me that with the same drum kit, how different it sounded from drummer to drummer.
Live drums is where it's at baby.
Edit: last year at the La. Namm show I went to the Bonzo fest. A three day show sponsored by ludwig, honoring John Bohnam.
Tons of great drummers and a good live sound mixer.
It showed without a doubt how crucial a good drummer is for rock and roll. And you get a real newfound apreciation for live drums.
No machine or programing will ever come close to the vibe, the energy, the interaction, as well as the variations in attack and tone these guys diplayed.
Some of the best of the best were there and it amazed me that with the same drum kit, how different it sounded from drummer to drummer.
Live drums is where it's at baby.
Last edited:
Yup. Still going. Hot topic.
Edit: last year at the La. Namm show I went to the Bonzo fest. A three day show sponsored by ludwig, honoring John Bohnam.
Tons of great drummers and a good live sound mixer.
It showed without a doubt how crucial a good drummer is for rock and roll. And you get a real newfound apreciation for live drums.
No machine or programing will ever come close to the vibe, the energy, the interaction, as well as the variations in attack and tone these guys diplayed.
Some of the best of the best were there and it amazed me that with the same drum kit, how different it sounded from drummer to drummer.
Live drums is where it's at baby.
I saw some videos of that I think, some super players on display
I remember I went to a masterclass by Karl Palmer back when I was still at school, he did crazy things.I guess if we all judge every music production against the best, everything comes up short.
Trying to directly compare drums and programming seems a bit like comparing a synthesizer to a piano. I believe there has been quite a bit off fuss from traditional musicians about how electronics were killing music at various points, and yet people are still playing both (and no-one complains about the death of the piano).
I'm not quite getting your stance. Are you FOR live drums in recording, or do you prefer programing?
Me, I'm not against doing what you gotta do to get the job done, but am highly in favor of the real thing.
Edit. The best of the best set the bar for us to strive for.
Years later after their passing, both Bohnam and Keith Moon are still recognized. That says something.
Me, I'm not against doing what you gotta do to get the job done, but am highly in favor of the real thing.
Edit. The best of the best set the bar for us to strive for.
Years later after their passing, both Bohnam and Keith Moon are still recognized. That says something.
I'm not quite getting your stance. Are you FOR live drums in recording, or do you prefer programing?
Me, I'm not against doing what you gotta do to get the job done, but am highly in favor of the real thing.
Edit. The best of the best set the bar for us to strive for.
Years later after their passing, both Bohnam and Keith Moon are still recognized. That says something.
Well, that depends what kind of music you're talking about. It's impossible to back up a case that one is better than the other.
My personal preference is recording drums for rock, folk and jazz, but it's less clear cut when you get even slightly further into different styles. To say one is better than the other you need a partoculalry narrow view of what music is valid or 'good' which is pretty dumb.
I know drummers who play better than I can program, and I enjoy mixing a live kit more than programming so I record 'properly' mostly.
Given that this is 'home recording' forum it seems absurd to knock people who don't have the resources to record drums by saying that the tools they are using to do what they can about it are useless.
I remember why I stopped posting on this one now...the whole arguement is so simplified it's meaningless?
Online pissing contest, anyone?
beezelbubba
Shitty Buddhist
I neither applaud nor lament the use of programming. It's a fact of life for me.While I don't want my drum tracks to sound lame, I'm not overly obsessed with making them sound real, either. They are one voice in the composition.
It comes from home recording. People don't have to know how to play or how to record drums, so drumming and recording drums as an artfom is dying in the recording community. Even in the pro community. Pro studios even reach for sample replacement/enhancement. Live, yes, drummers still rule the roost in pretty much any genre that has a drum beat. But for recording? They've been replaced with machines and software, and people are okay with it because it's become the norm and many of them don't know any better. Look at our own MP3 clinic as a microcosm of the home recording community in general. Go through the 5 newest pages and count how many real drum tracks are in those songs. I bet you can count them on one hand. Real amps fare a little better than real drums, but they're going bye bye too, and people are generally okay with that. I'm not.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I didn't realize there was any kind of celebration going on?
I like working with a real drummer. The drummer I've mostly recorded with actually plays with feel and nuance, and uses the kit in a very musical way...but I've also worked/played with some real drummers who only sound half-decent playing hard, loud and fast and keeping it simple. Granted, a lot depends on the music being played...so each style has a purpose.
That said...you can also get the same good or bad results with sampled drums and sequencing, though like Greg said, most guys using samples and doing drum sequencing just don't get the nuances and feel of playing a kit when they create their grooves.
So the problem isn't the samples or the tools...it's the user...but that's no different than a guy who can't play guitar all that well and who uses sims. No need to blame the sims for his inability to play well, by telling him to get a real amp.
The solution is in both cases...practice. Learn how and what it takes....but lets not blame the tools.
fat_fleet
Swollen Member
I think you are misjudging the intent here.
Well, I respectfully disagree with that. It's the opposite of my experience both 'pro' and otherwise.
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick:
The argument you're making seems to add up to the idea that people who don't have the resources/skill to record drums shouldn't be allowed to use a substitute (good or otherwise) because it's not the real thing, which is always 'better' or somehow more valid in your opinion. Essentially that some musical tools or instruments are more valid than others. Is it Rockism applied to instruments?
@ 4tracker and jake jw,
I've been getting the perception that you feel people are hostile to you for your support of programming drums. I don't see that to be the case. Also it seems you DO record real drums, which makes no sense seeing how you are fighting those that support real drum recording as being superior.
I realize this is a "home recording" forum, but so what. Many pro artists (using the definition of pro as one who exclusively makes a living off of their craft) are doing records in their "home studios"
There are homes that range from studio apts to outright built from the ground up mansions. So "home studio" doesn't just refer to a bedroom studio with an Ipad and dr beats phones.
We are discussing the merits of programing vs real.
I understand that there is a convenience factor and a practicality factor.
For me I can do drums in my place but no way could I record a string section. So I get it.
Those that are aurguing for real drums aren't putting down programing (i dont think)
I think we are just pushing for actuall real instruments and musicianship.
Real is always better. And the best drum samples are taken from real drummers recorded with real mics on real drums.
So, they ARE trying to give you real.
All I, and we, are saying is if you can do real from the get go, DO REAL.
As far as technology being responsible for a dying craft, thats true. Across the boards. Just look at how many jobs have been lost to machines and computers.
I know Greg has been quite vocal in this thread, and why shouldn't he be. He IS a drummer. He has a personal interest in that craft staying alive
We as a group of musicians, while we should being willing to embrace and use technology availible to us, MUST fight to retain the skills and talent before it is lost forever.
Every thing that comes from some computing device IS trying to emulate the real thing, be it drum programs amp sims, tape emulators, reverb plugins, programmed pianos and strings.
Why not do the real thing if you can?
I say do it.
Ps excuse any tpos. Done from my phone real fast
I've been getting the perception that you feel people are hostile to you for your support of programming drums. I don't see that to be the case. Also it seems you DO record real drums, which makes no sense seeing how you are fighting those that support real drum recording as being superior.
I realize this is a "home recording" forum, but so what. Many pro artists (using the definition of pro as one who exclusively makes a living off of their craft) are doing records in their "home studios"
There are homes that range from studio apts to outright built from the ground up mansions. So "home studio" doesn't just refer to a bedroom studio with an Ipad and dr beats phones.
We are discussing the merits of programing vs real.
I understand that there is a convenience factor and a practicality factor.
For me I can do drums in my place but no way could I record a string section. So I get it.
Those that are aurguing for real drums aren't putting down programing (i dont think)
I think we are just pushing for actuall real instruments and musicianship.
Real is always better. And the best drum samples are taken from real drummers recorded with real mics on real drums.
So, they ARE trying to give you real.
All I, and we, are saying is if you can do real from the get go, DO REAL.
As far as technology being responsible for a dying craft, thats true. Across the boards. Just look at how many jobs have been lost to machines and computers.
I know Greg has been quite vocal in this thread, and why shouldn't he be. He IS a drummer. He has a personal interest in that craft staying alive
We as a group of musicians, while we should being willing to embrace and use technology availible to us, MUST fight to retain the skills and talent before it is lost forever.
Every thing that comes from some computing device IS trying to emulate the real thing, be it drum programs amp sims, tape emulators, reverb plugins, programmed pianos and strings.
Why not do the real thing if you can?
I say do it.
Ps excuse any tpos. Done from my phone real fast