How to look at your songs objectively ?

Bubba po said:
How many awesome ass-kicking songs has he written that we've all heard of?
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To be fair, that isn't a good assessment of how proficient a songwriter is, whatever the fuck that means.

Songwriting is too personal and diverse a topic to even discuss really. Way too many biases and opinions.


There is most likely a science to reaching and pleasing the most people at once but fuck those ignorant twats. I believe that the term "basic bitch" covers that sort of low effort taste very well.
 
Schwarzenyaeger said:
To be fair, that isn't a good assessment of how proficient a songwriter is, whatever the fuck that means.

Songwriting is too personal and diverse a topic to even discuss really. Way too many biases and opinions.


There is most likely a science to reaching and pleasing the most people at once but fuck those ignorant twats. I believe that the term "basic bitch" covers that sort of low effort taste very well.
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What do you suggest is a good criterion for assessing how good a songwriter is, then? Surely it's how good his or her songs are? And I'm not talking just about being popular, either. Popular music has a significant amount of dross in it. I said "how many awesome ass-kicking songs has he written?", not "how rich is he from songwriting?". Lots of songs that I consider to be awesome and ass-kicking are not that widely known but are revered within their own fan-base and critically-acclaimed to boot. A quick Google has revealed NO decent songwriting credits for ANYTHING at all. Not one. What is his expertise based upon? If I wanted my kid to learn Physics I'd expect his professors to have made a decent contribution to that field of study - Papers, research, accreditation....EVIDENCE, in short, that they were any good.

Two adages for you:

Them as can, do; them as can't, teach.

Expert: An Ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
 
Bubba po said:
How many awesome ass-kicking songs has he written that we've all heard of?
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Using that as a criteria would then exempt any songwriting advice from any people on this site .... just saying.



Bubba po said:
What do you suggest is a good criterion for assessing how good a songwriter is, then? Surely it's how good his or her songs are? And I'm not talking just about being popular, either. Popular music has a significant amount of dross in it. I said "how many awesome ass-kicking songs has he written?", not "how rich is he from songwriting?". Lots of songs that I consider to be awesome and ass-kicking are not that widely known but are revered within their own fan-base and critically-acclaimed to boot. A quick Google has revealed NO decent songwriting credits for ANYTHING at all. Not one. What is his expertise based upon? If I wanted my kid to learn Physics I'd expect his professors to have made a decent contribution to that field of study - Papers, research, accreditation....EVIDENCE, in short, that they were any good.

Two adages for you:

Them as can, do; them as can't, teach.

Expert: An Ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
Click to expand...

Really - you're drawing an analogy of songwriting to physics now? Physics Professors that are accomplished in thier field? How many can you name? You think Berklee just hires any people to teach?
And that old adage about teachers is as old (fashioned) as your attitude.


Pat Pattison's Lyric Pages
 
Bubba po said:
-.
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Physics is a science, songwriting is a subjective artform. When electricity was discovered, it was discovered. It didn't have an extended chorus with extra harmonies because the guy felt like it needed that extra touch. :D

What does "how good their songs are" mean? That's impossible to define.
 
mjbphotos said:
You think Berklee just hires any people to teach?
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That seems to be the case as far as songwriting goes. :D Anyway, quit stonewalling. What acknowledged awesome songs has he written that you believe gives him the expertise to teach other people how to do it and to draw the kind of salary that a Berkeley professor might for doing so?

What outstanding works has he produced in his field?
 
Maybe it's like that old story:

"
Jack, a smart businessman, talks to his son.
Jack: "I want you to marry a girl of my choice."
Son : "I will choose my own bride."
Jack: "But the girl is Bill Gates's daughter."
Son : "Well, in that case..."
Next, Jack approaches Bill Gates.
Jack: "I have a husband for your daughter."
Bill Gates: "But my daughter is too young to marry."
Jack: "But this young man is a Vice-President of the World Bank."
Bill Gates: "Ah, in that case..."
Finally, Jack goes to see the President of the World Bank.

Jack: "I have a young man to be recommended as a Vice-President."
President: "But I already have more Vice-Presidents than I need."
Jack: "But this young man is Bill Gates's son-in-law."
President: "Ah, in that case....."

This is how business is done!"
 
Schwarzenyaeger said:
To be fair, that isn't a good assessment of how proficient a songwriter is, whatever the fuck that means.

Songwriting is too personal and diverse a topic to even discuss really. Way too many biases and opinions.


There is most likely a science to reaching and pleasing the most people at once but fuck those ignorant twats. I believe that the term "basic bitch" covers that sort of low effort taste very well.
Click to expand...

Amen X 100000000000000000000000000000. Best post you've ever made in here.
 
Bubba po said:
What do you suggest is a good criterion for assessing how good a songwriter is, then? Surely it's how good his or her songs are? And I'm not talking just about being popular, either. Popular music has a significant amount of dross in it. I said "how many awesome ass-kicking songs has he written?", not "how rich is he from songwriting?". Lots of songs that I consider to be awesome and ass-kicking are not that widely known but are revered within their own fan-base and critically-acclaimed to boot. A quick Google has revealed NO decent songwriting credits for ANYTHING at all. Not one. What is his expertise based upon? If I wanted my kid to learn Physics I'd expect his professors to have made a decent contribution to that field of study - Papers, research, accreditation....EVIDENCE, in short, that they were any good.

Two adages for you:

Them as can, do; them as can't, teach.

Expert: An Ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
Click to expand...

Yes, this too.
 
Greg_L said:
Yes, this too.
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I agree with what Schwarzenjaeger wrote, too.


songwriting is too personal and diverse a topic to even discuss really. Way too many biases and opinions.
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If that is the case, which I think it is, then it's also too personal and diverse a topic to teach.

Although I've written a few songs in my life, I don't believe I have a talent for writing songs - furthermore, I don't believe anybody could teach me how to have a talent for writing songs. However simple or complex a song is and whatever genre it's from, a great song has a spark. It has poetry. And by poetry I mean it in its purest sense, that is conveying the most amount of meaning in the fewest possible words, or musical ideas.

I believe that a genius for writing a song is an emergent property of some human brains - I don't believe it can be taught. Honed perhaps, but not taught.
 
I don't think songwriting classes are for writing a "great song".. they're more for writing the song that appeals to the most people, and I think that can probably be taught. There's enough empirical evidence, and it's what alot of musicians are shooting for.
 
I think since there is no standard of what is or isn't a good song, what the fuck is all this about anyway? That's why I think it's laughable that anyone would even consider a songwriting "course", as if there is some standard for songwriting.
 
I tried a writing course a couple of years back just for something to do. I was dubious and concerned about mixing with the muse.
What I found, was formulaic, cynical, rules based and lacking in creativity.
I may have had people put the stressed syllable on the stressed rhythm but it was just about as unfriendly and unuserfriendly as possible.
Now, I'm biased because the people involved didn't like my lyrics much but I didn't like theirs either.
 
rayc said:
I tried a writing course a couple of years back just for something to do. I was dubious and concerned about mixing with the muse.
What I found, was formulaic, cynical, rules based and lacking in creativity.
I may have had people put the stressed syllable on the stressed rhythm but it was just about as unfriendly and unuserfriendly as possible.
Now, I'm biased because the people involved didn't like my lyrics much but I didn't like theirs either.
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Yes, this. See, I think your lyrics are usually pretty good. But I know where you're coming from. I get your influences. I understand your style. That's why I think if someone truly wants songwriting feedback, they need to walk that line between friends and family just blowing smoke, and having anonymous nobodies rip your stuff without any understanding of where you're coming from. It's a tough line to walk, but that's where you could get actually useful feedback. No fake pleasantries, no nonsensical criticism. Find your niche.

I say just write your own song to make yourself happy with it, and then let the chips fall where they may. Some might like it, some might not. That's life. You can't please everyone, even if that's your ultimate goal. And if your self-worth is tied up in people liking your songs, you probably need to seek psychiatric help, not songwriting help.
 
I take the mix on the road. Burn the cd and listen to it while I'm driving. For some reason my car/truck stereo always lets me hear everything on the mix. I take notes, go back to my studio and tweak it
 
If one of my tracks captures the essence of something I saw, heard, thought, felt or sometimes smelled then I consider it good. If I can take one of my tracks and play it on a toy zxylophone into an iphone and it holds up then its good. If someone likes one of my songs, that's just gravy. I think at the level that most of us in this forum are working at it makes sense to just do what you enjoy and leave it at that.
 
I assume I'll always want to improve them, even after putting them on an "album".

But for me, it's just about having and improving an artistic and emotional outlet, which is a lifelong process (maybe a little bit of rockstar fantasy as well).

Unless a major player in the music game comes up to me and says "I'll take that as it is - don't touch it anymore!" - I'll probably keep on meddling and trying to improve each song 'til I'm bored with it. Kinda like a toy, I guess.

Daryl
 
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