How to look at your songs objectively ?

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psihobambi

New member
Whenever I make a song that's great (to me) I go on to finish it, obviously.
My 'downside' as a producer is that I am a perfectionist (I know everyone says that..), I like to change a lot. Add a bit of this and that, maybe change an entire refrain because the sample wasn't 'mixable'.. because of that I don't know
if I can look at the song the same way as I did when I made it.
I'm afraid that I've listened to it so many times that all of the flaws are flying past my head because I got used to them.
I listen to a song from the other room, standing on my head, scrolling through facebook, talking to someone, all of that just to listen to it from a fresh perspective.
What do you do to stay objective (I know you can never be 100% objective) , and do you know if you've changed to much and the song has lost it's initial magic ?:guitar:
 
psihobambi said:
Whenever I make a song that's great (to me) I go on to finish it, obviously.
My 'downside' as a producer is that I am a perfectionist (I know everyone says that..), I like to change a lot. Add a bit of this and that, maybe change an entire refrain because the sample wasn't 'mixable'.. because of that I don't know
if I can look at the song the same way as I did when I made it.
I'm afraid that I've listened to it so many times that all of the flaws are flying past my head because I got used to them.
I listen to a song from the other room, standing on my head, scrolling through facebook, talking to someone, all of that just to listen to it from a fresh perspective.
What do you do to stay objective (I know you can never be 100% objective) , and do you know if you've changed to much and the song has lost it's initial magic ?:guitar:
Click to expand...

Hey,
I get where you're coming from.
Some people here rehearse or learn fixed parts then record, mix and close the book so it's not that big of an issue to them,
but I do tend to try ideas as I go and write additional parts as the mix builds.

Sometimes I do get what you're describing and the following things help.
One - Take a break for a decent amount of time. When you come back, trust your immediate reaction, rather than allowing yourself to 'get used' to the mix.
If your gut says something's off, it is.
Two - Play the mix back with someone else in the room.
It might sound stupid and it might just be me but I do get a different perspective when I know someone else is listening.
Three - Turn the screens off, sit back, and listen.

When you can't see the visual cues and the temptation to tweak is removed, you're listening properly.

Regarding making big changes and second guessing yourself, I guess it's just gut.
It does no harm to have a few trusted people who can give your mix a listen with fresh ears, though.
If you get the same negative (constructive) feedback from more than one person, try to be a big boy and take it onboard. Not always easy! :p

Keep old mixes and even session copies if you're going to make a drastic change. That way you can flick back and listen to how it used to be.
Usually that'll tell me straight away if I've veered off in the wrong direction.
 
Thanks, man.
I also noticed that I become more aware of the flaws and my music generally when someone is in the room with me :)

First tip will definitely help me out.
 
I've observed before that two contradictory things happen when you record: you notice things that are inconsequential, and you don't notice things that should be noticed. So you spend hours fixing things that don't need to be fixed, then listen two weeks later and notice that a guitar track is way out of tune.

Trying to listen to a track objectively is difficult, because, in your head, you know how you are expecting it to sound, and your brain is pretty good at hijacking your ears and making you hear what you want to hear.

time is one way of neutralising this; i.e. put the song away and come back to it a couple of weeks later. Another way is to put distance between you and it. Listening to the song from another room is another way.

Try the other suggestions made in the posts above.
 
What they ^^^^ said. Put the song away for a week or two, work on other projects, come back to it. Join a songwriting forum and solicit input if you are looking for feedback on song structure, lyrics, etc. Post an MP3 in the Clinic here if you want feedback on the mix itself.
 
I suspect most of us agree that it can be very hard to listen objectively, in particular since we do have an "ingrained" idea of what the song should sound like.

As the others have suggested time spent away is the best way to let that ingrained idea of the song fade - so when you hear the song after some time away you are hearing it from a fresher and hopefully more objective perspective.

The other this I would suggest - and this comes as a hard learned lesson for me since I'm inclined to "over produce" - rally list to every recorded part and honest determine if the part is really needed - do it truly serve the song?

I find the more I do that, and the more I manage to reduce the number of tracks in the mix - the easier it is to really focus on the remaining parts and be more objective about those parts (examples - do I really need 3 separate guitar tracks, 2 separate synth pads and a percussion part in addition to the drum track?????)
 
Xdrummer said:
I (examples - do I really need 3 separate guitar tracks, 2 separate synth pads and a percussion part in addition to the drum track?????)
Click to expand...

Yes, plus 3 more lead guitar tracks, a piano and organ, too! Very correct though - we tend to record multiple takes and instruments striving for the optimal ones, and then try to use all of them during mixdown.
 
When trying to arrange a song, I like the idea of soliciting widespread feedback through live performance. When you play a song one way and people are singing along by the second chorus, and when arranged (or lyrically modified) in another way, people are just kinda bobbing their heads and going to the bar for another drink, you can say the first arrangement was measurably, demonstrably better. In the last band I was in, it wasn't odd for us to arrange a song a few different ways before we settled on the way the crowd liked best. Sure sometimes the "regulars" would comment about liking it better before a change, but hey you can't please everyone always!

If you can't perform songs live, pepper them into your next road trip, party, or family gathering playlist (if appropriate) and watch how people respond. "Who is this?" is usually a good sign. Indifference shows you it isn't reaching out and getting into peoples' ears.

I think production and mixing decisions are best made in support of what you find people like to listen to, dance to, and sing along with. I have always been a performer first and foremost when it comes to music, though, so that obviously colors my drive when songwriting and now, with recording/mixing. If the performance of a song is immaterial to you, then my method is likely not applicable!
 
If you're looking for songwriting feedback, stay away from songwriting sites and/or other musicians. That's the worst place for input. They're all egomaniacs with their heads planted firmly up their asses. If they knew anything about good songs, they'd be writing them themselves. Unless you can find an accomplished songwriter that is successful with your general style of music, stay away from people in the same boat as you are. Blind leading blind gets you nowhere.

Get feedback from people that just listen to music. Not songwriters, not musicians, just regular people that don't know shit about anything but they like music. Their reaction will tell you what you need to know if pleasing people is your goal.
 
I don't always agree with Greg (although he does offer a lot of value to this site) - but I think he has a really good point. Other writers or musicians will over analyze and possibly even downplay what you did to help support their own ego. Regular folks who like music without thinking about song structure or proper use of theory or if the guitar sits properly in the mix will like it or not like it simply by how it touches them - and if we're trying to write for the masses - isn't that the true test?
 
psihobambi said:
Whenever I make a song that's great (to me) I go on to finish it, obviously.
My 'downside' as a producer is that I am a perfectionist (I know everyone says that..), I like to change a lot. Add a bit of this and that, maybe change an entire refrain because the sample wasn't 'mixable'.. because of that I don't know
if I can look at the song the same way as I did when I made it.
I'm afraid that I've listened to it so many times that all of the flaws are flying past my head because I got used to them.
I listen to a song from the other room, standing on my head, scrolling through facebook, talking to someone, all of that just to listen to it from a fresh perspective.
What do you do to stay objective (I know you can never be 100% objective) , and do you know if you've changed to much and the song has lost it's initial magic ?:guitar:
Click to expand...

Is 'finish it', that obvious? Never done that, myself. Upload to your .mp3 player for the car or burn your tunes to CD then listen to them in your car, burn them in between the tunes that you're liking lately. In driving you move through different environs and moods and that can reveal new perspectives on your works. Also it doesn't hurt to listen to your stuff on different audio systems such as the car's audio. Run through the car audio EQ presets - does it sound better with any of them? Don't play them at work unless you already know that they're the greatest - everybody there is just looking for a reason to hate you. Sorry that's just how the world is - weak-minded as f v c k.

There's no hurry to perfect anything (unless you're a professional producer posting on a home audio forum) - so there's always time to add stanzas, new pieces, all of that. Unless... you haven't been taking care of yourself in which case start taking care of yourself - we are our always our own ultimate limiting factors so don't rush to 'finalize your own ultimate master.'
 
Thanks for all the help ! I took a bit of a break from my music. Been listening to a lot of music that I like. Got a notepad ready and will scribble down what I don't like about the song on my first listen.
All of your posts and advices are very helpful :thumbs up:
 
I sense a lot of bitterness and resentment in some of these replies!
Yeah, some people (musicians, songwriters) may not provide good feedback depending on their own attitude towards others. Non-musician friends and family - they're going to tell you what you want to hear (like on karaoke night at the local Chinese restaurant/bar - "you sound great").
I facilitate a songwriter circle that meets once a month - people bring a song idea they are working on - it may be in its infancy or 'nearly done' and after playing it, the others give critiques and suggestions. It's always 'keep or sweep' - either you absorb the suggestion and make use of it or ignore it. Same goes for online songwriting forums - you will get helpful and non-helpful suggestions. Saying that using these methods don't work means they didn't work for those people in particular. I see people who argue wiht every suggestion or comment made on their songs - these people don't want help, they just want their egos stroked. If you see a forum where everyone is always complementing each other and there is no real song suggestions/critiques being made, then that's probably not one worth staying with.
 
mjbphotos said:
I sense a lot of bitterness and resentment in some of these replies!
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No. I assume that's directed towards me because I was the first to disagree with your songwriting workshop idea. You're wrong about that. I'm not bitter or resentful about the idea of a songwriting workshop. I'm against giving and getting songwriting feedback in general because songwriting is a personal thing and it's very genre specific, and songwriting nobodies generally hold others to standards that they can't reach themselves. Say some dude's style and influence is campfire acoustic love songs. How the fuck is he gonna give a useful critique of a death metal song? Or southern hip-hop? Why would he even try besides just wanting to hear himself talk? The whole idea of an anonymous songwriting workshop is silly. The people giving the feedback are stroking their own egos, not the receiver of the feedback.

But I will partially agree with your idea if the person wanting feedback seeks you out or finds a songwriting circle full of qualified people within his/her style and genre. Then you're on deck. Critique at will. If joe songwriter doesn't care where or from whom the feedback comes from, then knock yourself out.

I personally take the approach that my song is my song, and no one does me better than me, so I don't need or ask for songwriting feedback. And if I do want that kind of feedback, I will seek out people that I think could help me. I won't just ask for anyone's opinion. I don't blindly accept anyone's opinion. Joe campfire guitar can't make me a better songwriter. I take that approach towards others as well. I don't go around critiquing people's songwriting unless it's something that I'm familiar with. I can't make joe campfire better either.
 
mjbphotos, the confirmation/sampling bias you mention is removed if you pepper your stuff in with other songs in a playlist. Otherwise I agree 100% - social relationships are always going to be a factor in any type of in-person critique. I also think the "songwriter circle" has the exact same bias (sampling/confirmation) built right in. A concert setting obviously has its own set of issues, but I think on the whole for artists that want to create commercially-successful art, this is the way to get data from your real target. You're not likely to make money on record sales like you will from playing shows and selling merch unless/until you're huge, anyways.

To support what someone else mentioned, most non-musicians don't notice chord structure or how similar/dissimilar a song is from other songs. If they like the melody, the feel/drive, etc., they will like the song. I call that "hummability." Yeah, some people learn song lyrics and sing along but most that do that are still only singing along with the chorus/hook, and likely don't really care too much what the other lyrics are or what they mean. Moreover, reference "oh, oh, ohs," and "dum da duh dums" and such. Things like adding superfluous words to make meter drive some "songwriters" crazy, but a widespread audience doesn't notice even bigger things like subject/verb agreement, so...

In reality, if you are driven to create art that is powerful to you, then only you know if you were successful. If your drive is to create art that is powerful to a specific group, then focus groups will work (for instance, the aforementioned songwriter circle). If you are looking to create art that is powerful to a widespread audience, then getting as broad of a sampling as you can and passively getting feedback will likely work. To me, that's playing shows, which have the added benefit of being a really fun time.

And if you're creating a product to sell and don't care about the art, go choke yourself... :spank: ;)

Hell, maybe the real answer here is "you can't - now stop asking for our affirmation and create something!" :guitar:
 
You can't learn songwriting, but you can learn things to improve your songwriting. And amazingly enough, sometimes things you learn to improve how your songs are liked by others makes them sound better to you, too. :thumbs up:
Check out the coursera.com (free) Berklee Songwriting class given by Pat Pattinson. The day you stop learning is the day you start dying.
 
No one said "stop learning". And if you think you can learn songwriting paint-by-numbers-style from some random shmoe, then knock yourself out.
 
Not so random, sorry he's not in the 'punk world'. Professor at Berklee School of Music. Written multiple books on songwriting. His students include Gillian Welch and John Mayer. Over 300,000 people have taken the online course I mentioned above.
 
mjbphotos said:
Not so random, sorry he's not in the 'punk world'. Professor at Berklee School of Music. Written multiple books on songwriting. His students include Gillian Welch and John Mayer. Over 300,000 people have taken the online course I mentioned above.
Click to expand...

:facepalm: :facepalm:
 
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