Disassembling FATAR keyboard to clean - Help!

Toddskins said:
Heya John,

Yeah, I do not like taking it apart and all. I get better at it each time, but it's still a feat.

Regarding Patch 771, what you describe is normal. Mine does it too. Starting at G6 those notes sound like they have more reverb on them (or more sustain).

Of course, you can change how that sounds if you want to. Every single everything is programmable on the K-series.

Have you got any other purchased Piano samples for yours? My favorite is still the original v.2 "Ultimate Grand" that Sweetwater programmed way back in 1997 give or take. I've purchased their v.3 Grand Pianos CD and other companies' Steinways and Yamahas, Bosendorfer, etc., and while I like them, I keep coming back to the evenness and clarity of the Ultimate Grand Piano sample. It's only 16MB and is thrown in with the v.3 CD-ROM from like 2002 (which has a 64 MB Steinway and a few others) if you get it. But the 16MB YoungChang v.2 is still my favorite and like I said, is included with the v.3.

Buy it here: Sweetwater Grand Piano CD | Sweetwater.com
Click to expand...

Hi Toddskins,

Thanks a lot for the sound check, it seems to be normal operation then. I haven't spent any time at all on programming but am all geared up for it: I have the original manuals and the VAST programming manual as well as an external SCSI hard disk to save stuff on. It is difficult enough for me to find time to practice, let alone spend hours on programming. Might be a summertime summer project though :)

I haven't purchased any piano samples either. I found some stuff here and there on the net and came across the Sweetwater advert for their CD a while back too. Thanks for the link, I would have had to search for it again. At the moment, whenever I want a better piano sound I turn to virtual instruments (various ones on Kontakt 4 & Moddart Pianoteq among others) so the K2500XS turns into a glorified MIDI controller, kind of a waste really! What is very useful is the fact that the K2500XS is stand-alone so I can just turn it on and go, so it is perfect for practice.

If you feel the Sweetwater CD sounds really stand up to some of the current instrument sounds, virtual or real like the Kurzweil PC3 series, I would consider the expense.

John
 
John,

I just discovered 2 minutes ago that my Pressure on my white keys is not working. I get MPressure from the black notes, but none of the white. I must have done something when putting it back together.

What do I need to do to fix that? I know there are two plastic strips that feed lengthwise under the felts of the keyboard (one at the back and one at the front) that I have wondered about. One connects to the floppy drive, and the other does not appear to connect to anything. Its connector (frontside, closest to the player, hangs loose, and was too short to connect to the floppy drive pins, so I connect the other one (as I always have). It happens to be the one, running along the keys as can be seen in Post #57 on the Left side of the photo, directly under the blue handled tool, that I now realize must connect to something. But where?

Floppy drive works.

Is there a port buried underneath the Mod Wheel, next to the Floppy pins, that I missed, whereby this other long strip with wires in it connects to? If so, then my white keys have not had Pressure for many years. I almost never use that feature, but I have always let that 2nd strip that runs under all 88 keys left alone.

Is there another set of pins buried next to the Floppy pins?

I think now that maybe what I am calling Floppy Drive pins are not that at all, but rather a set of pins for the Pressure strip (my Black notes, the strip at the back) to connect to. And maybe, now, there is yet a 2nd set of pins for the 2nd strip? The floppy drive has nothing to do with these 2 strips.. right?

How do you connect both strips?
 
Last edited:
Ok, I think my fix of the contact board may prove useful here. When I do the next round of service (the rod and conductive silver on more of the contacts), I shoot a photo or two. For now I can give you something useful:
There's a German brand of luxury midi controllers (built in an aluminum case for easy transport on and off stage) called Doepfer. They also use the same/similar Fatar keybeds (I think Fatar's got the patent for these or at least for the bubble contacts) with the same bubble contacts. They were so nice to put the schematics for these boards up on their website (I still waiting for the answer from Fatar regarding my enquiry of the schematics ;-) ).
Unfortunately the forum system wouldn't let me post web addresses because I have less than 5 posts. The address will follow in one of my next posts.
This is a full keybed with the two boards. Here you can see which of the contacts (i.e. keys) comprise one circuit (important since this explains why if you rupture one of the copper traces, several keys on seemingly random areas stop responding) and where they go to on the ribbon connector. If you've got a multimeter and lot's of time and patience (or more practice than me), you may be able to locate the problem spot and bridge it somehow (wire, soldering, conductive pen/silver - graphite didn't work for me). Of course this is total hackery and may damage your board permanently (say goodbye to your warranty).
 
Concerning using it as a MIDI-controller... I hooked it up to my machine and tried various virtual instruments like the Lounge Lizard Demo (really great Wurlitzer and Rhodes Instruments, also a Hohner if I remember right) and the free Tascam CVpiano (basic piano, but better than whats on the keyboard). Unfortunately, the velocity is too soft. In order to get some good, somewhat piano-like dynamics and loud sounds, I have to almost slam the keys with all I've got. If I use the headphones and the instruments on the keyboard, the dynamics are fine. Is that normal?
 
Roloway said:
Ok, I think my fix of the contact board may prove useful here. When I do the next round of service (the rod and conductive silver on more of the contacts), I shoot a photo or two. For now I can give you something useful:
There's a German brand of luxury midi controllers (built in an aluminum case for easy transport on and off stage) called Doepfer. They also use the same/similar Fatar keybeds (I think Fatar's got the patent for these or at least for the bubble contacts) with the same bubble contacts. They were so nice to put the schematics for these boards up on their website (I still waiting for the answer from Fatar regarding my enquiry of the schematics ;-) ).
Unfortunately the forum system wouldn't let me post web addresses because I have less than 5 posts. The address will follow in one of my next posts.
This is a full keybed with the two boards. Here you can see which of the contacts (i.e. keys) comprise one circuit (important since this explains why if you rupture one of the copper traces, several keys on seemingly random areas stop responding) and where they go to on the ribbon connector. If you've got a multimeter and lot's of time and patience (or more practice than me), you may be able to locate the problem spot and bridge it somehow (wire, soldering, conductive pen/silver - graphite didn't work for me). Of course this is total hackery and may damage your board permanently (say goodbye to your warranty).
Click to expand...

Is this in response to my problem with the Pressure not working on my white keys?
 
No, it's the response to you asking for useful information/pictures on the hacks/repairs I've done and I thought that there wasn't any information on repairing failing contact PCBs. So I provided you with the schematics and some pointers as to how one might try to do it (of course only after one found out that it cannot be solved otherwise).
Sorry if this got mixed up here.
Concerning your problems... Maybe it's a software problem? What about a factory settings restore? Maybe a ribbon cable isn't connected properly. I also noticed on my keyboard that the black keys move a bit stickier/less responsive than the white keys. This seems to be normal. Or is this about a problem with the after-touch?
The plastic strip that mentioned may be from the after-touch. I've read somewhere that after-touch is done by putting an extra sensor strip under the keys.
 
Ok.

No, I'm fairly certain I have a cable not connected. I'm hoping John, who owns the same machine I own, will know where that 2nd ribbon (laying under the keys closest to you when you sit and play), will know where that ribbon connects to.

There are 2 ribbons, and I have apparently been attaching only one, for the last several times I have dismantled my Kurzweil.
 
Toddskins said:
John,

I just discovered 2 minutes ago that my Pressure on my white keys is not working. I get MPressure from the black notes, but none of the white. I must have done something when putting it back together.

What do I need to do to fix that? I know there are two plastic strips that feed lengthwise under the felts of the keyboard (one at the back and one at the front) that I have wondered about. One connects to the floppy drive, and the other does not appear to connect to anything. Its connector (frontside, closest to the player, hangs loose, and was too short to connect to the floppy drive pins, so I connect the other one (as I always have). It happens to be the one, running along the keys as can be seen in Post #57 on the Left side of the photo, directly under the blue handled tool, that I now realize must connect to something. But where?

Floppy drive works.

Is there a port buried underneath the Mod Wheel, next to the Floppy pins, that I missed, whereby this other long strip with wires in it connects to? If so, then my white keys have not had Pressure for many years. I almost never use that feature, but I have always let that 2nd strip that runs under all 88 keys left alone.

Is there another set of pins buried next to the Floppy pins?

I think now that maybe what I am calling Floppy Drive pins are not that at all, but rather a set of pins for the Pressure strip (my Black notes, the strip at the back) to connect to. And maybe, now, there is yet a 2nd set of pins for the 2nd strip? The floppy drive has nothing to do with these 2 strips.. right?

How do you connect both strips?
Click to expand...


Hi ToddSkins,

Yeah, there's 2 connectors for the aftertouch ribbon. One is near the upper part of the mod wheel assembly and the other one is buried toward the front of the mod wheel assembly, about 1/2 way inward. you need long slender fingers or some cushioned needle-nose pliers to put the connector back in. If I remember correctly, the black keys AT ribbon goes near the conenctor that is at the top end and the white keys AT ribbon goes to the front "buried" conenctor. The connectors are keyed so they cannot be hooked up backwards. One of my ribbons was connected backwards, and that's how I reconnected it and it works fine so I assume they were intelligent in their pinouts such that plugging backwards would still work. As always, plug and test before closing the case :) The front ribbon can disconenct quite easily when you are repositioning the keybed to bolt it back to the casing.

John
 
Roloway said:
Ok, I think my fix of the contact board may prove useful here. When I do the next round of service (the rod and conductive silver on more of the contacts), I shoot a photo or two. For now I can give you something useful:
There's a German brand of luxury midi controllers (built in an aluminum case for easy transport on and off stage) called Doepfer. They also use the same/similar Fatar keybeds (I think Fatar's got the patent for these or at least for the bubble contacts) with the same bubble contacts. They were so nice to put the schematics for these boards up on their website (I still waiting for the answer from Fatar regarding my enquiry of the schematics ;-) ).
Unfortunately the forum system wouldn't let me post web addresses because I have less than 5 posts. The address will follow in one of my next posts.
This is a full keybed with the two boards. Here you can see which of the contacts (i.e. keys) comprise one circuit (important since this explains why if you rupture one of the copper traces, several keys on seemingly random areas stop responding) and where they go to on the ribbon connector. If you've got a multimeter and lot's of time and patience (or more practice than me), you may be able to locate the problem spot and bridge it somehow (wire, soldering, conductive pen/silver - graphite didn't work for me). Of course this is total hackery and may damage your board permanently (say goodbye to your warranty).
Click to expand...


Hi,

It used to be, years ago, that Fatar being an OEM, would never respond to private email inquiries. I heard recently that since they were bought out by StudioLogic they now answer all inquiries. Doepfer is a great company for keybeds & synth stuff.

About copper traces on a pc board: graphite will never work, as you have discovered. I doubt that conductive paint will work and last. The only good solution is to neatly solder wire bridges where there are breaks. If you need to do a long wire run, use Kynar wire-wrap wire and glue it down on the board. You can still get new or refurb boards and rubber bubble contacts from "The Midi Store" I think (ToddSkins, correct me if I'm wrong) - Todd or I posted a link to the website in an earlier post.

John
 
Roloway said:
Concerning using it as a MIDI-controller... I hooked it up to my machine and tried various virtual instruments like the Lounge Lizard Demo (really great Wurlitzer and Rhodes Instruments, also a Hohner if I remember right) and the free Tascam CVpiano (basic piano, but better than whats on the keyboard). Unfortunately, the velocity is too soft. In order to get some good, somewhat piano-like dynamics and loud sounds, I have to almost slam the keys with all I've got. If I use the headphones and the instruments on the keyboard, the dynamics are fine. Is that normal?
Click to expand...


Isn't LoungeLizard nice ? I love some of the sounds & use it all the time. I prefer Pianoteq for realistic piano sounds and they do make a very decent Rhodes & Wurly too :)

I noticed the same thing you did concerning key velocity. I fooled around with the midi velocity maps but it didn't do any good so I learned to live with this problem for now. There is a Canadian company that makes a sort of "booster" for this kind of problem but I haven't tried the product and can't find the link right now...

John
 
Thanks for the tip, John. Pianoteq (2.3) is amazing. And it's very small (no samples; everything calculated in real-time). Kinda like Lounge Lizard for pianos. And it doesn't have the described problem with soft dynamics.
 
New problems and resignation:
Two keys in the middle octave (a and a# - ) made problems. Sometimes they worked fine, then they didn't and then they worked after me slamming them with full force. Really annoying. So I figured it's either the contact board or the rubber strip. To find out which one it was, I switched two of the rubber strips. Now it gets really weird: The c in the very same octave as the a and a# (the one key that is connected to the other contact board by the small ribbon) and which is on the area where I swapped the rubber strips acted "slammy" (it was louder than the other keys) also another key on a different strip acted this way. The a and a# were fine. Funny enough the presumably failing swapped rubber strip is now acting fine at it's new place. So I called the local music repair shop but the keyboard guy was already at home (understandable). On monday I'll probably buy 2-3 new rubber strips (if they have them) and they suggested I should get a new contact board from Korg -let's see (which is probably insanely expensive, given that the MIDI-Store which is normally pretty cheap wants 80 Euros for one PCB). Given the age if this instrument I don't wanna exchange the PCB if really necessary.
I think I'll rather start saving for a Roland RD-700GX (at least I can do all the service myself now ;-) ).
By the way, I tried something new against sticky keys... PTFE(Teflon)-Spray. It's supposed to be non-corrosive and usable in conjuction with plastics. So far the key in question works better (But a word of advice: Don't inhale the aerosol. I once took a breath and had problems breathing for a while - always use it either outside or keep an open window and use one of these straws that come with spray cans for applying).
So now the question:

Do you guys know what I can do against sometimes really loud and sometimes barely audible (uncontrollable velocity) keys?
 
Last edited:
That's almost certainly bad rubber contacts. Just replace them. The circuit board being bad is a long stretch. That should not be an issue, unless you physically damaged it yourself. I forget everything you wrote in the past several posts.

But the loudness and velocity issue is certainly bad rubber contacts. The MIDI store has the best prices on replacements. If you have an 88 key board, you need 7 of the 12-strips and 1 of the 13-strips. Modify one of the twelves into a "3". That would account for all 88 notes. See all the photos and posts on page 1 of this thread.
 
Yes, I think so, too. Thanks. Swapping the rubber contacts may eliminate some of the problems (they are really starting to get on my nerves). The MIDI-Store probably would be the cheapest solution, but since I live in Europe, it may take ages for them to get here (not accounting for taxes and postage). Fatar being an Italian company (as well as Korg) should have some parts resellers here (though I didn't find any online besides the MIDIStore and one in Italy).
I'll drop by the local musical instruments repair shop tomorrow. Maybe he's got them in stock (and won't treat them as if they are made of gold ;-) ).
 
There won't be any taxes charged, and shipping is fast, reliable, and normal (not extra fees tacked on). At $4.00 each US, and 8 strips total needed, that's only $32.00 plus shipping ($13 for First class mail overseas, or $32 for US Priority) And then the Euro is more valuable now than the US dollar, you should come out just fine. I would just order First Class Mail and save $19 on the shipping cost. Total $41.00 US = 30 Euros.

I would order from The Midi Store
 
Last edited:
I'm just off the phone with the repair shop... the would have to order the part from Korg and they urged me to replace the whole board with the rubber contacts. On the one hand it makes sense, on the other hand that's just too much money for a stage piano that's more than 10 years old. He's told me that one usually gets velocity problems because they cannot be put back exactly like the people at Fatar put them there. So one ends up with keys louder than others. That's why they usually tend to replace the board with the rubber bands. I dunno what I should make of this... sounds reasonable if you have enough money... if you don't then Midi-Store is the better alternative...
He'll phone me this week to tell me how much it'll cost.
"Man, I just wanna play that damn thing!"
 
I just bought a used contact board at the repair shop for really cheap. There is just one tiny thing I should have known and I hope noone else will make this mistake after this post.
There are newer and older versions of thise board which means different connectors. This can be solved by soldering the old conncetors to the new ones.
Then there are 2 different polarisations of the same board which are incompatible. I took some pictures of this before I return it tomorrow. It is important that you check which way the diodes are soldered to the board (where the kathodes and anodes are). Just check with a multimeter or check where the stripe is.

1. See the boards in comparison
2.+ 3. Close up of each of the boards.

I tried to upload the pics but no success there (tried jpgs which were 1,3 mb and 600 kb in size). Can someone help me?
 
John,

After attaching the 2nd pressure ribbon to the pins under the Mod Wheel, and hooking everything back up, the pressure on the White keys still did not work.

My Kurzweil is dismantled again, as I type this.

Did you say that you thought the pressure strip would work, regardless of which way the plug was connected?

Also, what do you know about Pressure ribbons? How do they work? Is it possible the ribbon itself is defective (doubtful, but maybe?), or is it really critical to have it placed Just Right at precise point location(s) under the sticky felt beneath the white keys? Again, I don't think my ribbon has moved, but the more information I have, the better.

Dementedchord, any ideas on the Pressure Ribbon on my white keys not working, even after having connected it once?


At this point, I'm just going to try reconnecting the ribbon to the pins, but with the connector flipped around 180 degrees.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top