My PERFECT 244 - another Bad Rubber inquiry

T

Tom Overthere

Member
I have a "time capsule perfect" PortaStudio 244 that I purchased in early 1984.
I intend to sell it, so I unpacked it and ran a few tests.

Lo and behold:

Inserted a tape and hit PLAY. It played, but with a steady, consistant "bump...bump...bump" mechanical sound.

Tried it again the next day. Now hitting PLAY does not move the tape. Things that go bump in the night, don't go bump the next morning (ha ha). But FastForward and Rewind work fine.


Q1. I read other HR posts, but am not sure. Does the loss of PLAY function indicate a failure of one belt, or both belts...?

Q2. Does anybody recognize the "bump...bump...bump" symptom. Is it likely a worn spot on a belt, or a flattened spot on a wheel? Or something else?


I found Dr ZEE's website and his 244 tutorials.
I found the TASCAM USA website.

What I didn't find is any U.S. source for the belts and rollers. Not even on the Tascam site.

Any suggestions on how to get the actual Tascam replacement parts?

Thanks,
Tom
 
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Loosen up my belt(s) - just like Thanksgiving

Here's a picture of my belts. They're not brittle, nor have they turned into goo. They just seem "enlarged".

The capstan belt is so loose that it was actually OFF its smaller metal wheel when I opened the machine. So I know that one needs replacement (and now I understand exactly why my capstan stopped turning).

my_loose_belts.jpg



My controller belt was still on both its wheels, but it seems quite loose. I can press the two sides together easily using very little finger pressure (so they touch each other) while the belt is on its wheels. Does that sound too loose?


(see picture below) As a further indication of its looseness, I opened a caliper inside the controller belt. The measurement is imprecise under these circumstances, but the overall length seems to be about 6-1/4" (3.125 inches x 2). Too loose?

control_belt_3-125_in_dia.jpg



Also, I don't want to take the face off this machine unless I absolutely HAVE TO, but I'm wondering about the idler tires. The first time I attempted to play a tape (Monday) the tape did move, but there was a steady, audible "bump...bump...bump" in the transport motion. Tuesday, there was no tape movement at all, and no "bumping" either...:cool:

Any ideas about what would cause the "bump, bump, bump"? My capstan roller shows no wear or deterioration of any kind, if that tells you anything... This unit has been kept in cool, dry conditions with only about ten hours of gentle transport use back in 1984.

Thanks
 
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Tom,
The capstan + control belts need replacing. No other option. The "bump, bump..." is most likely worn out rubber idler wheels (the face must be taken off). Dr. Zee, on his site, has some DIY (Do It Yourself) instructions how to replace the tires "off the shelf" (you don't need to disconnect the molex connector tho). If you're confident that the pinch roller is still good then leave it be. If you're located in the states or Canada, best to call Tascam / TEAC parts and put in the order.
Best of luck,
Daniel
PS: All rubber related components, whether on a new / used machine, especially this vintage, after so many years, need replacing. Rubber simply goes bad over time.
 
Tom, yeah, you sure need to replace both belts. I've found that the control belt can be substituted with an "o-ring" of a size that fits nicely and tight, I've found one at plumber parts in hardware store and it works fine. The capstan belt is the one that you'd have to find on eBay or order from TEAC parts (if they still have them).
You need to open up the machine to see the transport in action and see the idler tires, check their condition etc. There's no other way to find out what exactly going on there. I know it's a pain in the neck to do... :(:laughings::(
 
THANKS - More questions

cjacek and Dr ZEE ==

Thank you both. We are now Analog Blood Brothers, yes? :D


I'll call TASCAM in California on Monday AFTER I remove the top cover and inspect the pinch roller. I'll bet its fine, but there was that bump...bump...bump, so I'll have to check it.

QUESTION 1: Current Value in US Dollars?
Once I refurbish the 'bad rubber' this thing will be pristine. Can you guys give me some idea of the current value? Do people collect these?
a) Only ten / twelve hours of tape transport action back in 1984. Since then, just very light ocassional use as a mixer, sending signal to my TurtleBeach Monterey card (in my clean home studio with conditioned power via a battery backup unit).
b) with original Tascam punch-in / punch-out foot pedal in like-new condition
c) with original, unblemished user manual and schematics manual
d) with original receipt from Jan 1984 to confirm I'm the original owner
e) The parts and postage will cost $20 to $25 additional


QUESTION 2: Purchase an EXTRA set of rubber parts?
I'm thinking about buying TWO sets of "new rubber" so whether I keep it or sell it, the unit can be refurbished again ten years from now. Is that pointless? I mean, will the extra parts deteriorate in their plastic bags during the first ten-year period? What if I seal them from air, keep in a cool, dry location and throw a desecant pack in with them?


QUESTION 3: Compatable with a STUDIO ONE?
A local buyer is interested. He'd like to be able to play back his early demo work recorded on a TASCAM Studio One? Do you guys know if that machine's four-track head layout and recording speed were the same as the Portastudio 244?

Analog Questions...in 2010 :eek:
Thanks
 
Q1: - I have no clue. :) Ask an "expert" ... he'll tell Ya' ;)

Q2: - It's hard to guess what may happen and when to a rubber part. Rubber isn't a "natural" thing. There are many "rubbers" out there that were created by diffrent 'alchemists', so are not the same. Someone who is into industrial chemistry and rubber industry may know better or have a better guess... well, maybe.

I have a collection of junk from the past (see first attached pic).
So I have for example some parts from 60s and they still are just fine. See RCA belts and tires picture (rca parts were removed from a junker recorder). Then see Webcor Betls set with original receipt dated 1995 (UH!! don't you love those prices?) :D - these belts are "New", and they were not kept in a vacuum nor in any special "climate-controlled" chamber ...heh heh heh ... and these belts are just perfect.
Then look at melted tire and pressure roller from Tascam 244 I had ... (I keep these for reference and for demonstration).
I've seen older rubber that still is just fine and I saw newer rubber that was turned into moosh or dust or stone.
The point here is, that I'd say: You simply never know. It's a combination of chemistry plus the process ( how that rubber was "made") plus environment plus time.

Q3: - I never had porta one, so don't know for sure. Since the "person who is interested" is local, then ask him to stop by with his tape and try it out :)
 

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Tom, unless you're in need of 100 - 200 extra bucks (minus parts cost) or the extra space, don't sell it. It's not a particularly lucrative sale item. Now, if it was new old stock, in box, then you might get 200 - 300 but that's stretching it. They're great recorders but they don't command freaky high auction prices.
 
Little wheel = Big noise: Is is normal?

Dr ZEE =
Thanks for the short course on Analog Alchemy. :D I think referencing "the vast array of possibilities" for rubber compounds is the only reasonable answer (dammit). Typing Device: LOL

cjacek ==
Yeah, unfortunately $100-$200 would come in pretty handy right now... The need for "funding" is how I came to discover that my "perfect" 244, isn't (sniff). Also, I would let the buyer try his Studio One tapes on my 244...except the 244 isn't working due to the belt issues.:D


Do you guys have any idea whether THESE BELTS fit, and are of good quality. The seller's in England, so if they're not the right belts, there's little chance of a refund (I'd have to send them off to you, Dr ZEE, to add to your 'extensive collection').


QUESTION: Is this normal?
Both belts are OFF. When I power ON the unit, the small pulley wheel for the control belt spins freely and constantly. It makes a continuous "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" sound. So I put the overly-loose control belt back on its two pulley wheels and the sound stops. With no capstan belt installed, PLAY, FastForward and Rewind/Reverse seem to operate normally--the metal capstan pulley spins and no sound comes from the small control belt pulley. Of special note, Rewind/Reverse only runs for 3 or 4 seconds. Then it stops.

Is that what should be happening? The "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" sound just makes me nervous, and I don't understand why Rewind stops (when no capstan belt is installed). I don't want to pay for parts/shipping/phonecalls if there's something wrong with this unit (I'm 98% sure it's fine, but as YOU know, I know NOTHING about this...

Actually, after one week, thanks to you guys I understand a LOT about this unit. 'Wish I had learned more about it...oh...TWENTY-SIX YEARS AGO! :eek:
 
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Perfect Idler Tires - NOT

Here's a picture of my idler tires/hubs and knurled brass rotor. Looks GOOOOOOD, except there's an indentation on the lower tire, in the shape of that knurled brass rotor! :eek: That would explain the "bump...bump...bump" mentioned in my first post.

I got the TINY retaining clip off the shaft with no problems. Used the flat side of a small screwdriver. Located the flat of the tool across the washer's split (screwdriver held vertically) and just pressed the flat directly toward the shaft. The washer spread and I grabbed it before it LAUNCHED into the bowels of the machine.

QUESTION:
What if I move the lower wheel/hub to the upper position, and the upper wheel/hub to the lower position? Would that solve the bumping, since the upper wheel presses against very large-diameter black plastic wheels, instead of the small-diameter of the brass rotor?

QUESTION:
Does Tascam sell the wheel+hub, or just the rubber wheel?

Thanks,
Tom
 

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Here's a picture of the indentation on my lower idler wheel.

Do you think that's enough to cause the "bump...bump...bump" I described?

Do you think moving this damaged lower rubber tire to the upper hub, and vice versa will get rid of the bump? The upper tire rolls against much larger-diameter plastic wheels...

I tried to turn this tire INSIDE OUT, so the damage would be on the INNER curcumference, against the hub. So far, I couldn't get it to lay in the rim properly. Do you think the tire will be overtaxed by forcing its molded smaller inner circumference to stretch to the size of its molded larger outer circumference?

Wutta project this is turning out to be...:eek::D:eek:
 

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You must have good control belt that is tight and does not slip. Without control belt the machine is dysfunctional, period. The control motor will just spin fast without belt. With the belt on, the control motor action is "controlled"-back (for the lack of better term :) ) by the potentiometer the shaft of which is on that fancy black gear-hub.
Just place the good belt on , inset cassette then press play, stop and you'll will see how it works (well, sort of, I mean, you'll get a visual idea about how it works, that is :eek: ).
As I've said it's not critical what kind of belt you use there. Any square or round belt that fits nicely and tight there will do. I have an o-ring there, that works just fine , see here for details: http://www.mzentertainment.com/pics/teac_244/dr_zee_workshop_tascam_244_project_part2.jpg

I don't think you can "inside-out" the idler tires. :D

When you get your belts, then you can operate your machine and then you can watch your tires in action and see if that "defect" on the tire is the reason for the bump-bump noise. It could be so. The tires should be smooth but not shiny, firm, but not stone-hard.
You can substitute tires with a rubber washer if you have problem finding original part. For details See "replacing idler tires" here: http://www.mzentertainment.com/studio_workshop_tascam_244.html
I believe that TEAC part dptmt sells the plastic hubs together with the tires on them as replacement part. I have no clue if they still have those.
 
I see there are couple sellers on eBay now in USA that sell some belts kits, including 244...looks like $24 for a kit. Search eBay for "tascam 244", it should show in search results.
As for "quality" .... - I have no clue. It's a rubber, you know, and rubber is rubber, so you never know :p :D Check the sellers feedback and contact the seller / ask a question if you are not sure if the belts actually will "fit" the machine as advertised :)
I don't know what's the status on any of those parts at TEAC parts. You just need to contact TEAC and ask.
 
Great advice from the good Doc, as always. :)

I run the risk of repeating some of the stuff but lemme chime in anyway, my 2c.... if you will. ;)

Tom, when I first saw the tires, they indeed look good but a lot of the stuff is missing, like the ability to touch and closely scrutinize the rubber. Good catch on that "dent" which makes a stronger case for that "bump, bump..". That rubber looks a bit too soft for me and should not have left that indentation. The tension is too low, where it sits on the motor bronze shaft, to have left a dent there. If you wanna go least expensive, then go out and get compatible rubber washers at any "home hardware" type store. You need good rubber there and not reuse the old one. I believe that TASCAM still has these BUT they only come with the plastic wheels. They're pretty expensive. While I went with the "washer" idea initially (still works great), I did buy the original replacements.. Cost me about $50 total vs about $10 for the washers. Obviously it's best to use originals (as they ideally fit better) but you'll have to decide if it is worth it to you. Again, I personally think you need to replace the rubber tires. I believe that is the reason for the bump noise you're hearing. It could also be as the result of the slack control belt and anomalies in the way the mechanism works (but I don't know if that would make that "bump" noise that you speak of). That "noise" is more consistent with a bad idler tire but, because I have not heard it myself and have not put an ear to what's making that noise, I cannot say for certain. These machines, when taken care of, don't usually develop any problems outside of the rubber going bad. Take a read of the following thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=288575
#10 post down shows my own replacement of the idler tires (using off the shelf washers).
Hm, what else...... Yeah, replace both belts. I believe TASCAM still has 'em in stock and may be cheaper than going with an eBay seller. Just call 'em.
Take your time, use a magnetized screwdriver for the hard to reach screws and... again, take your time. You rush, you damage. ;)
 
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Again, THANKS to you both for your detailed advice. It's very helpful.

Dr ZEE ==
Thanks for the links to your individual/specific fixes. I had already read them all and downloaded for reference (see, you're famous :D ). Your one-BIG-jpg page technique was troublesome, but I found a way :D

cjacek ==
Excellent thread you linked. If I read it correctly, the consensus is that plumbing washers is a hit-or-miss solution in terms of size and rubber composition (and whether my local stores carry the same brand used by DrZ). My idler tires look and feel "normal". Not overly shiny or dull/rough. They're pliable, not hardened. I was able to remove them from their hubs and swap them - lower tire to upper hub and vice versa with no evidence of cracking or any other problems.

I'd like to just buy the two belts and try out my "idler tire swap" strategy, but if it doesn't work out, I'd have to pay the Tascam shipping cost a second time to get the idler tires after all... Considering the low resale value and the fact that I'm "fully digital" these days, I want to limit the repair expense as much as possible.


QUESTION 1:
Does the outside/overall diameter of the idler tires matter? If I get plumbing washers that are slightly larger or smaller than the original tires, will that:
a) alter the record/playback speed
b) cause too much or too little pressure between the tire and whatever it rolls/presses against? Too large could strain the motor or something else... Too small could result in not enough "grip" between tire and its mating wheel...:confused:


QUESTION 2:
I read somewhere that I can clean the faders (to avoid crackle noise) by spraying with WD40. Is that true? If so, where do I spray it and are there any cautions that I should know about?

Thanks
 
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Rubber parts: Part Numbers, Prices, Availability

Dr ZEE, U DA MAN. And cjacek, U DA UTHA MAN. Thanks, guys.


I just got off the phone with TEAC America. I spoke with MIKE at (323) 727-4840:

CAPSTAN BELT (large flat belt)
Part No. 5800275 200
$12.60 backordered 30 to 60 days

CONTROL BELT (little square-profile belt)
Part No. 5800275 300
$3.82 in-stock

IDLER WHEEL ASSEMBLY A (the UPPER half, tire on white hub)
Part No. 5800120 802
$12.86 in-stock

IDLER WHEEL ASSEMBLY B (the LOWER half, tire on white hub)
Part No. 5800120 902
$12.86 in-stock

PINCH ROLLER
Part No. 5800891 200
$8.45 in-stock

Delivery is a FLAT $5.00
They ship what's in stock, and charge your credit card only for what they ship. When they ship backordered items to you, your card gets charged at that time. They take major credit cards.


Still not sure what to do. Don't want to wait 30-60 days, and I think I might not need any idler tires, or maybe just one to replace the 'dented' lower tire... Hmmmm
 
Tom Overthere said:
the consensus is that plumbing washers is a hit-or-miss solution in terms of size and rubber composition (and whether my local stores carry the same brand used by DrZ). My idler tires look and feel "normal". Not overly shiny or dull/rough. They're pliable, not hardened. I was able to remove them from their hubs and swap them - lower tire to upper hub and vice versa with no evidence of cracking or any other problems.

I'd like to just buy the two belts and try out my "idler tire swap" strategy, but if it doesn't work out, I'd have to pay the Tascam shipping cost a second time to get the idler tires after all... Considering the low resale value and the fact that I'm "fully digital" these days, I want to limit the repair expense as much as possible.
Click to expand...

Tom, you don't have to get the exact same brand as Mike (Dr. Zee) did but something which more or less matches the original. You can take one with you. Now, most likely you won't get a perfect match but as long as it's close then, as Mike already pointed out, it will be fine. I'd take one of the idlers with you and actually compare and even try the rubber washer before purchase. Again, it usually won't be a perfect fit but gently coaxing it with a small flat bed screwdriver will do the trick (again, see Dr. Zee's instructions).

Yes, I certainly understand your need to under spend to get back as much $ as possible from the sale so, yeah, get the belts replaced and see if everything is working good. I speculate that you swapping the tires will make it run better, meaning without that "bumping" noise. While those tires are on their last legs (they're slowly going gooey), I think they'll still work for some time. Worst case scenario, you'll get the washers from your hardware store.

At the risk of repeating, here's what I would do (if I were in your shoes)... I'd get both belts, replace 'em, swap the tires (done) and test the unit BEFORE putting it back together. That way, you'll know all is good and don't have to open it up again.
 
RE: Rubber parts: Part Numbers, Prices, Availability

Those prices are very good. The only deal breaker is the backorder status of the belt. Hm... As time is of essence to you, I might pull the trigger on one of the auctions you spoke about earlier. Worst case, you're protected by PayPal and will have your money refunded if it doesn't work out. That eBay seller looks promising though.
 
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