Powerful hooks that overshadow the song

grimtraveller

grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
RokZtaR said:
I'm a country music writer. On that genre, the story is everything... and of course the hook ;)
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Over the last few weeks I've been hunting down as many singles as I can remember from the 50s to the present day and in the course of this, I've become even more aware than I had been before of the power of the hook or catchy, memorable chorus. Time and time again I'd find that I remember a song from my youth, primarily by it's chorus and in doing so, realize that I didn't really remember or know the verse or middle or bridge or whatever.
I'd known this for years without really ever focusing on it until I came to Tina Turner's "What's love got to do with it ?"
For some reason, that one song brought everything into sharp focus because it struck me that I knew the chorus really well but if you'd held a gun to my head and said "Sing the rest of it or die !", my will would be being executed sooner than I'd intended.....
I've found others to be exactly the same, with hymns, classical pieces, rock and pop singles, jazz pieces, album tracks....
So two things, when writing songs, are you consciously aware of searching for and using hooks and what are some of those songs that you actually really like or remember because of the hook rather than the song itself, if there are any ?
 
I don't specifically search for hooks or think about needing to have one in a certain spot of a song, they just sorta evolve on their own as the song composition progresses ....but yeah, most modern music has them to one degree or another, and most of the stuff I've written has elements that would be considered "hooks".

The fact that choruses are usually repeated, adds to their "hook" power, even if the actual chorus isn't a very strong hook on it's own....but that's what sticks in people's heads. Sometimes it can be just a single repeated word in a song that acts as the hook. Sometimes it can be a line in the verses that repeats, and the chorus becomes a secondary hook.

There's a some popular/hit songs that kinda ramble on aimlessly without any hooks or repetition, some without any choruses....but they are very few compared to songs that use them. I prefer to write songs with choruses...though I seem to recall doing maybe one or two in the past where I tried to avoid that....I just can't remember which, 'cuz they had no hook! :D

Grim....are you doing a book on songwriting topics? ;)
 
"Barry Says" - there's a hook! Oh, but people would think it's about Obama. :facepalm:

Most times, I come up with the hook 'idea' - a phrase or a couple of words, along with the song's basic premise, and then try to incorporate it into the the chorus meaningfully.

You're right about some of today's songs, though - no hook, and nothing to remind you of ANY of the lyrics so that two minutes after hearing the song, you've forgotten it completely.
 
Well, again, I write for musical theater so I'm probably off in a (very lonely) niche by myself here on HR. Songs in musical theater work very differently than in other genres -- they have to advance the action, fit the character, have their own through-line and their own arc. For music theater, a good hook is the key to a successful song. The way my writing partner and I work is we'll first define the arc of the scene -- what has to happen, where the characters wind up in relation to each other, and what the "button" of the scene should be. Then we'll talk about what the music needs to do (our current project is almost completely "sung through" or "wall-to-wall"), how it will affect pacing and how it works both with and against the musical feel of the scenes that came before it. We'll also identify the type of song, e.g. an "I want" song," a "fight song," an exposition song (got to get the back story out somehow, and I think it's better done with a song than dialogue), and so on.

Once we've got all of that mapped out, we'll search for the hook. For us, the hook has to support everything I've described AND lend something unique and interesting to the specific song, though by the time we get to the hook stage we've got a pretty good idea where we're going with the song. Very often, once we get the right hook, the rest of the song, both music and lyrics, flows easily.

In that respect, the hook doesn't overwhelm the song, but rather is intrinsic to, and the logical expression of, the song. It also provides the audience with something to hang onto throughout the song -- some of my music follows "traditional" formats, but some goes all over the place, changing meter and key. It has an internal logic to me, but someone hearing it for the first time (which is the case in all music theater) may have trouble following it; a good hook is critical to this because it's something the song returns to consistently and allows the audience member to say, "Oh, I see -- okay, I get it."

This probably has absolutely nothing to do with you and most HR folks write, but you asked. :)
 
yuppie said:
I dont know why you bother asking, you have your mindmade up already, and will attack any answer given.
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Gee, what a pleasant start for your first post here.

First of all knowing about "hooks" is LEARNED craft.
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Of course it is. What's your point?

The most common use of a "hook" is for commerciality. it's not surprising that you only remember the hook of a song, because that is why they are created, the hook will often sell the song in pop music.
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I don't think you understand the meaning of "hook" in the context of song-writing. "Hook" is a writing technique. "Commercialism" (not "commerciality") is a goal. That writers who want commercial success use hooks has nothing to do with why and how hooks work.

But there are more ways that a listener gets "hooked" you are just describing marketing hooks.
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I was right -- you don't understand the meaning of "hook" in the context of lyric-writing. It has nothing to do with "getting a listener 'hooked'". It is a lyrical/musical statement upon which the rest of the song can hang.

The rest of your observations on what can hook a listener have nothing to do with the topic, so I won't bother commenting.
 
PTravel said:
Gee, what a pleasant start for your first post here.

Of course it is. What's your point?

I don't think you understand the meaning of "hook" in the context of song-writing. "Hook" is a writing technique. "Commercialism" (not "commerciality") is a goal. That writers who want commercial success use hooks has nothing to do with why and how hooks work.

I was right -- you don't understand the meaning of "hook" in the context of lyric-writing. It has nothing to do with "getting a listener 'hooked'". The rest of your observation on what can hook a listener have nothing to do with the topic, so I won't bother commenting.
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Dude, it's barry. Grim laid the bait and dumb ol barry couldn't resist. Like a rat to cheese.
 
yuppie said:
My point was if you go through these posts these bozos think that you cant learn any7thing about songwriting.
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Perhaps you should spend some time going through the posts on HR before telling everyone what people here think.

Secondly, you are completely wrong, of course lyrics are made to "hook" a listener.
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Indeed they do, but that is NOT the meaning of "hook" in the context of lyrics. Perhaps you should read the OP's post again, because he clearly DOES understand the meaning of "hook" in the context of lyrics.

Cmon now stop talking out of the butt and learn something.
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Now that's funny. Sonny boy, I don't know who you are, but I certainly know what you are. You're a young kid with no formal training or experience who thinks listening to Top 40 through his teen years (which, I suspect, are not yet over) makes him an expert. Now, me -- I'm just an old fart with a BA and two graduate degrees, all in related fields, who has studied lyric writing and composition with some of the best in the world. Now, I'm no big deal at all, particularly in comparison with some of the immensely talented people who post here, but I have no trouble at all discerning who needs to stop talking out of his young, naive and arrogant butt and "learn something."

I will thank you for one thing, though. Greg_L, who is a valued contributor here (and a BRILLIANT song writer and musician, and who also knows what a hook is) has been lobbying for quarantining newbies like yourself until they have proven themselves . You've convinced me that he is absolutely right.
 
PTravel said:
This probably has absolutely nothing to do with you and most HR folks write, but you asked
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I'm a little more open ended than Yuppie/Murt/Bunk/whoever they choose to be next time would have you believe and I thought your take on this was fascinating.
I have to say, when I pose questions, I may have my thoughts on the matter but I've no idea where the conversation will go. It's only risky if one wants to shut down any views but their own.
 
yuppie said:
Nothing wrong with giving your views, should be welcomed. but you correct people who know what they are talking about, and you state it as fact
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I state things as opinion unless I know it is unshakable fact. I don't think too many things presented on a home recording forum are actually unshakable fact. And that is the beauty of conversation ¬> people swap and grapple often with conflicting opinions that sometimes converge.


And now folks, back to the topic at hand........
 
Lyrics mean nothing by themselves. It's all about the melody. A real songwriter knows this. Barry isn't real songwriter because he only focuses on lyrics. No one recalls lyrics like they're reading a book.
 
Some people actually are listening to music they don't really like just because they love the lyrics
That really happens.
I don't understand it, though.
 
yuppie said:
Now we back out of the argument. You made this statement, That I, dont know what a lyrical hook is or isnt,
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That's right -- you don't. You seem to think a hook is the same as a song title (notwithstanding your grammatical and spelling errors).

You were not only wrong in that assertion, but wrong in what you were arguing. you lost this debate, run while you still have your dignity
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There was no debate. For there to be a debate, it takes someone on each side who knows what he's talking about. You clearly don't.

By the way, is grimtraveller right -- are you a troll who posts under different screen names? I don't have time for immature internet trolls. Go online somewhere else and fantasize with the other trolls about what you would do if you ever got a girl to go out with you.
 
PTravel said:
By the way, is grimtraveller right -- are you a troll who posts under different screen names?
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I don't know for sure that it's barryc, others may do. I'm not clued up on that stuff. I actually liked barryc and thought he contributed a lot though he got a little intense with Greg. But people do.
But I know for sure that Yuppie is Murt and some other alias that chili deleted in a thread that got [temporarily ?] closed on Saturday. I know that because of the way he's answered across three threads, cross referencing and taking on board all three personas as though it were the same person.
It's amusing in parts, but in truth, it's actually embarrassing. I don't know whether it's a good thing or not that I can feel embarrassed for someone.

Going back to the topic, the power of the melody in hooks {and other parts of the song} is what really grabs. I've often observed that while I love lyrics and enjoy discovering their meanings, the same songs with the same melodic delivery could be about harvesting bananas and I'd still love them.
 
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