Small room recording possibilities?

G

ghostred7

New member
My band practice space is pretty small....like 13x17. We've got some acoustic paneling as well as egg-crates up all over the wall with a carpeted floor. Each guitarist has head w/ 4x12 cab. Bass has 1x12 or 1x15 combo. Drums are acoustic. Vox go into the crappy PA.

My question is: given the small space and only 8 channels to work with, what would be the best way to capture that without having way too much bleed-through across microphones?

This is what I'm capturing with 1 large diaphragm condenser about 6' in the air, facing the wall behind the drummer from the middle of the room. Only some minor tweaking on the EQ done. Don't put too much thought into performance....was only our 3rd time playing it LOL. Only recording I have with it setup like this.

View attachment strangers_112911.mp3

Any suggestions you may have help record this situation better will certainly be welcomed.

The gear I have (I know there's still some I need like a kick drum mic):

MXL 990/MXL991 kit x2
SM57s
SM58s
SM58-beta
Focusrite SaffirePro 40
Win7 + Sonar X1 Producer
Behringer 8-channel mixer into amps/speakers (does have limited line-out capability).

Thx in advance.
 
A) Bleed can be awesome as long as it sounds good.

B) Use smaller amps at lower volumes. (They'll often sound bigger)

C) If you face the amps toward the drums, or better yet, at a 90-degree angle off-axis from the drums, you can get less bleed by exploiting directional mics' off-axis rejection,

(Remember that cardiod mics reject sound best from the back, and bi-directiona land hyper cardiod mics reject sound best from the sides.

D) Buy/build/beg/borrow/don't-steal some gobos. If it was me, I'd probably bring in some badass little screamin' tube amps and put those big useless 4X12s to work as gobos, but that's just me :D

In a pinch, some big old roadcases can work well as gobos too.
 
Egg crates and carpeting are not helping at all. Lose the egg-crates, they're useless. If there's a way to get rid of the carpeting, do that too. Right now, you probably have a boxy, dead sounding room. That's because you've cut your mids and highs with the carpeting and egg-crates, but did nothing about the lows. 99% of the problem in 99% of rooms is the low end, not the mids or highs. By having carpeting and egg-crates up, you just made the low end 100% of your problem.
 
1) Forget the mixer and PA system for recording. Plug the mics direct into the Saffire. If they are already, what happened to the vocal in the song sample? You're never going to defeat the bleeding in a room that size - unless you get everyone to record their parts separately. Let the rhythm guitar record a scratch track with the drummer. Then using that in headphones, record the drummer. Now you've got a solid drum part for everyone else to record too. If necessary, after the guitars have recorded, let the drummer record another take.
Recording as you have, it's always going to sound like a practice room.
 
mjbphotos said:
1) Forget the mixer and PA system for recording. Plug the mics direct into the Saffire. If they are already, what happened to the vocal in the song sample? You're never going to defeat the bleeding in a room that size - unless you get everyone to record their parts separately. Let the rhythm guitar record a scratch track with the drummer. Then using that in headphones, record the drummer. Now you've got a solid drum part for everyone else to record too. If necessary, after the guitars have recorded, let the drummer record another take.
Recording as you have, it's always going to sound like a practice room.
Click to expand...
The sample was 1 mic sitting in the middle of the room.

As for the carpet...it's a rented space in the middle of a warehouse. What's in there is what's in there. And no, the egg-crates weren't my idea. Ideally for actual recording, separate w/ click, etc is the way to go. I'm just looking for a more optimal way to record rehearsal other than the 1 mic.

What is this gobo thing?
 
OK, if you are just recording the rehearsals, for what purpose? Either you want to make a demo, a releasable CD/dile, or just use the recordings to improve your playing.
 
Mainly for self-improvement...but usable for an "in the meantime" demo for booking pkg in the meantime. Really for the self-improvement and sharing with friends in case we capture something decent. For a real demo, we'd have to sit down and do it the right way w/ click-track, multiple takes, etc.

Additionally....neither myself, nor the other guitar player (2 guitar, 1 bass) have anything but the 4x12. I'm actually going to be building a 2x10 for myself as I've always like 10s for electric guitar. We both have tube heads. We *could* go direct-in, but lose a lot of the room and would have to come back in and use impulses or something to liven up the dry feeds.
 
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Just a thought using the Saffire:
Channel 8-MXL 991 as a single drum overhead.
Channel 7-MXL 990 placed under snare/hi-hat to catch toms/bass drum/snare/hi-hat. You'll need to work a little on what placement sounds best. You may need to pull it away from the drum kit a tad keeping the the mic diaphragm about 12 inches above the floor. If the 990 has an input pad, use it. If the 990 proves to be too hot, try a 57. (This type of mic placement is an old recording trick I read about and have used when there are minimal mic channels!)
Channels 6/5/4-SM57s on guitar amps.
Channel 3-Run Direct out from bass amp into this channel
Channels 2/1-vocals from behringer "(stereo?) outs". Add reverb unless planning to do so "in the box". If only 2 vocals, pan one left and one right. If more than 2 vocals, pan lead vocal left and back-up vocals right if possible. If you have someone engineering and multiple vocalists doing lead in one song, the engineer, via the behringer, could conceiveably pan the primary vocal part to the left when each vocalists sings their lead part, then back to the right when singing back-up.....
Assign each channel a separate track in your recording software.
Record a song, listen to it, then do a quick mix and see if this set-up will work.
Hope this helps!
Also!-with everyone in the room being perfectly quiet, have one person clap their hands together and listen for any "echo type effect" in the room then check back here with your result. :)
 
PERFECT! Thanks much!!!

This is a "path fwd" that I'm looking for. I don't EVER expect these recordings to be near anything commercial quality or really anything I would distribute as a demo....but something I can use w/ a promo pack to give an idea. My experience is that venue owners that do booking don't think too deeply on production value vs. performance value since they want people eating, drinking, and having a good time.
 
ghostred7 said:
venue owners that do booking don't think too deeply on production value vs. performance value since they want people eating, drinking, and having a good time.
Click to expand...

A little off-topic, but since you brought it up.....

I'm not sure if thinking this way is the best route to any kind of success. True, club owners, just like the average non- musician wouldn't know good production value if it bludgeoned them over the head, simply because they have no idea what a good production is. But that's also where it can backfire. Since they know nothing about it, they also expect everything to sound "good"...as in, just like what they hear on the radio. They probably couldn't tell you WHY something sounds good or bad, but if they're comparing your demo with another band's demo that was well recorded, mixed, etc...without knowing the reason why, they'll think the other band is better, even if the other band sucks. They also won't realize that the 13 guitar over-dubs, 4 percussion tracks, and 6 part vocal harmonies aren't going to be there when this 3-piece band actually plays live.

So, all I'm saying is, don't under-estimate their stupidity. It can come back to bite you in the ass. :D
 
Oh, I totally agree, which is why anything we give them we tell them up front is from a live show. As far as I'm concerned, recording in the space as discussed here is nothing more than a live recording sans audience. I'd love to give them a polished demo...but we're simply not at that point yet and I'd rather get out and play than waiting around for the finances to record & polish b/c frankly, my personal recording space/room/whatever is too small for drums and an acoustical nightmare (which, when I can post pics will start another thread on that LOL).

99% of the places we book will take basic promo stuff, regardless of production and then ask you to come in and play either an open mic or opening for an already booked act so they can hear what you can give them live and make the judgments based off of that. Maybe we've just gotten lucky so far.
 
ghostred7 said:
PERFECT! Thanks much!!!
This is a "path fwd" that I'm looking for. I don't EVER expect these recordings to be near anything commercial quality or really anything I would distribute as a demo....but something I can use w/ a promo pack to give an idea. My experience is that venue owners that do booking don't think too deeply on production value vs. performance value since they want people eating, drinking, and having a good time.
Click to expand...
Glad I could help.
You just might be surprised what you can come up with using a small recording rig like this.
If the overall mic bleed isn't too bad, you might be able to come up with some decent mixes.
AND, you can always overdub if necessary.
However, the band DOES have to sound good for the recording to sound good and with that piece said, I agree with Rami.
In other words, practice, practice, practice.
Then practice some more.
It's possible that a club owner here and there might not know what "good" is, however, most of them will.
On top of that, many people in the audience WILL know if you are good, bad, or otherwise and their opinions count especially if they are walking out of the door with their cash and complaining about the band.
 
Oh ya. I'm the "band-nazi" when it comes to putting together stuff and going out (open mic jams excluded). I won't agree to a booking if I don't think we're ready on a performance level collectively...same w/ the other guys. I think Rami was talking about the quality of the samples handed to the venue managers/booking guys/gals. Basically saying they'll think that the lesser band is better if the samples sound better...and in a lot of cases, this definitely is the truth.

I just ordered a laptop with firewire so I can try. I really don't want to lug my desktop, monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc down the practice space if I don't have to.
 
Bump for additional question...

OK...so in this example B posted:
1 & 2: Stereo from vox mixer
3: direct-in from bass amp
4-6: SM57s on guitars
7: MXL990 under snare
8: MXL991 above drums

I wouldn't need 3 SM57s for the guitars...so should I take an additional 990 around the snare/kick area, an additional 991 for overhead, or something else?
 
Less is more?

If you plan to record the band "live", I personally wouldn't add any more mics at this point.
More mics could create problems with "Bleed".
You could conceivably add a room mic for some ambience, but for now, try it this way and see what you get on "tape".
By the way, How many vocalists?
Bob G.
 
Like many have already said, with a small room, your going to get bleeding in the mics. Try to minimize it by moving the guitar amps to point away from drum and vocal mics, etc...may take a few times to find the best spot. I agree with the 4x12 cabs being overkill for recording. If no other amps are available, have the 2 guitar players find a good tone at a lower volume. Turn down ! You don't need to be loud to record solid parts. Otherwise, go with what you have and try to capture the best "live" sound you can. As you said, this is more for self improvement and hearing what you sound like.

As far as recording to make a demo for specific purpose....There are 2 considerations....1) some club owners/event planners what a "live demo with no"special overdubbing" - they want to know how you sound as you are, so recording live in a room like this may be just fine for that type of person. 2)For a nice sounding, well, mixed demo, perhaps even for audio for your website, etc, I agree with the guy who said record everything separately starting with drums first. Then layer and overdub all other parts. If one guitar player and bass player can plug in to your recorder direct without an amp sounding in the room then use this method to get your drums recorded, as these are acting as scratch tracks ( replaced later).... Everything else can be individually recorded in quiet without worries of any bleeding. Recording this way can provide excellent results, but obviously takes longer.

Best thing you can do is EXPERIMENT with mic placement in the room , volume levels and moving amps, etc....try to find the best optional sound that you can get out of this room.

Good luck.

S.
 
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