To Wah or not to Wah......

[Greg_L]

I don't think that recording loud really means that much.

You think wrong.


Rami this sounds awesome. The kick and bass pop. The snare has your tight signature sound but it has some meat too. The ghost notes are clean and articulate like they should be. Perfect drum sounds for this song. Anyone that says otherwise is insane. The half-cocked wah sound seems to be just about right to me. My only mix critique is that the left rhythm guitar is a little weak in the mix with the wah sound dominating. Vocals and leads sound great. Good stuff.

 

[RAMI]

You think wrong.


Rami this sounds awesome. The kick and bass pop. The snare has your tight signature sound but it has some meat too. The ghost notes are clean and articulate like they should be. Perfect drum sounds for this song. Anyone that says otherwise is insane. The half-cocked wah sound seems to be just about right to me. My only mix critique is that the left rhythm guitar is a little weak in the mix with the wah sound dominating. Vocals and leads sound great. Good stuff.

That's really god to know, man. Thanx. I'll see about bringing up the left rythm git.

On a side note, I noticed something interesting. I always knew you can't go ny numbers and you can't mix with your eyes. But I was reminded of that in this tune. The wah parts clock in 4-6db lower than the non-wah parts as far as meters go. But they SOUND about twice as loud because the sound cuts through so much more. I had to lower the wah parts to make them sound about the same volume as the non-wah parts, even though the meters were telling me they were way lower.

 

[dobro]

It's not true that I don't like negative feedback. But if it's too vague, it does nothing for me. If someone tells me the song needs real drums when I'm already using real drums, I disregard that advice because it's obvious they have no idea what they're talking about. If someone says that digital sounds brittle blah blah, I stop reading what they have to say because it's obvious they're talking out of their ass and just repeating something they probably read in 1982. If someone starts putting down every "decision" I made on a cover tune, when every one of those "decisions" were already on the original version of the tune I'm covering, it's a waste of my time.

If I get constructive criticism based on objectivity, I always consider it. All through this thread and every thread I've ever started, I tell people I'll take their suggestions seriously and try what they suggested. All the time and almost every time, and that can be verified by reading any of my threads and not cherry picking what you read.

So, I don't know where you get that I don't like negative feedfack. I just don't like negative feedback when it's obvious that someone's just LOOKING for something to suggest or something negative to say as if it's some kind of obligation.

Sorry, your statement is false.

Now, I appreciate your opinion, but I don't know what to do about it since I don't put an EQ on my master. I EQ instruments individually. If there's something in particular you find EQ'd badly, try to let me know and I'll try to fix it. If it's just the "overall EQ" , then all my songs must sound that way because they're all recorded in the same room and pretty much the same way. Not sure what to do about that. I'm not even disagreeing with you. You hear what you hear. But I don't know what to do about " unpleasant penetrating quality to the way this one's EQ'ed". What does that mean to you? Is it "tinny", "boxy", hollow" ? I'll address it if I can, but I don't know what you're hearing.

Funny, the thread for this tune was all about asking for other people's opinions on which version they like better (or hate less). There's even a poll for christ's sakes. On top of that, the tune ended up being half wah and half no-wah based on SOMEONE ELSE'S suggestion. Yeah, I must be totally narrow minded when it comes to other people's opinions.

I'll share what I hear with you, but I'm not going to debate it cuz that's a waste of time for both of us. I described it as clearly as I could - it's not any one thing, it's the overall result of all the mix decisions you made that I'm hearing as...what did I call it?...unpleasantly penetrating. It wears me out listening to it. It's like pornh with the bright lights on - you can see everything super clearly, but it would look better if someone hit the dimmer switch a bit. You remember recently that mix you did that I heard as bright, and then I checked it with an EQ readout and it was clearly pretty much a flat, even frequency response? As a result of that experience, and as a result of hearing this mix in this thread, I'm going to investigate some stuff - I'm going to start comparing your stuff and my stuff and other stuff here with reference mixes. I'm not interested in pissing you off, I'm interested in learning. Keep posting stuff. (Redundant instruction #1.) I'll keep listening (Redundant announcement #2.)

 

[RAMI]

I'm not interested in pissing you off, I'm interested in learning. Keep posting stuff. (Redundant instruction #1.) I'll keep listening (Redundant announcement #2.)

No offense, but you're flattering yourself if you think anything you say pisses me off. I haven't gotten pissed off over anything in over 3 years, and certainly not anything on the internet. I might "bite" in my responses, I might dwell on something to try and make a point, I might even be a little mean sometimes, and I probably have even sounded pissed off. But, believe me, a few things changed in my life over the last few years that have made me take things so not seriously that you couldn't piss me off if you tried. Music is a hobby for me. I don't get pissed off over a hobby that I love with all my heart.

To be honest, you seem to get pissed off when my responses aren't what you're expecting. You shouldn't let that happen. I'm not that important.

By all means, keep listening, keep commenting, or don't. I'm good either way.

 

[dobro]

Cool. I'm glad I got the wrong end of the stick about offending you.

 

[RAMI]

I didn't know there was a stick.

 

[kindafishy]

This mix is killer. Clean, aggressive, punchy, powerful.

Love the guitar tones all around. The bass tone is awesome (!). This is something I really struggle with.

As with your other tunes I have heard, I love the song. This is perfectly up my alley.

To me, this sounds like a recording made by an experienced recordist. I can hear quite clearly that either through technique that you have developed through the years or through an innate sense of approach (or both), that everything was meticulously captured with serving the song and production in mind. I hear it in the bass note duration, in the feel of the guitar playing, in the great drum feel and in the vocal delivery.

Great. Just great.

PS - I vote wah. All the time. Every song should be wah from start to finish. All instruments, sometimes rocking in unison, sometimes confusing the hell out of the listener. Bass, guitar, vocals, snare, everything. All wah. It's never too much.

PPS - I just perused this thread quickly. I noticed you are using a Fender Champ and a Radial ProRMP. I use that same rig. I have always been a Fender amp guy. I had a Twin for many years, alas it was too heavy and too loud (sorry Greg) for me to continue with it. The Fender Champ? I absolutely love it. Love it. Do you have the combo or the head/cab version?

PPPS - Greg, they (we) aren't all miscreants. Some of us newer folks really want to contribute and really want to improve. There is a lot of sincerity here.

 

[RAMI]

This mix is killer. Clean, aggressive, punchy, powerful.

Love the guitar tones all around. The bass tone is awesome (!). This is something I really struggle with.

As with your other tunes I have heard, I love the song. This is perfectly up my alley.

To me, this sounds like a recording made by an experienced recordist. I can hear quite clearly that either through technique that you have developed through the years or through an innate sense of approach (or both), that everything was meticulously captured with serving the song and production in mind. I hear it in the bass note duration, in the feel of the guitar playing, in the great drum feel and in the vocal delivery.

Great. Just great.

Great man, thanx a lot. I hope you're not just saying that because of the direction the thread took. You can tell me it sucks if you think so.

PS - I vote wah. All the time. Every song should be wah from start to finish. All instruments, sometimes rocking in unison, sometimes confusing the hell out of the listener. Bass, guitar, vocals, snare, everything. All wah. It's never too much.

I agree. I tried hooking up my Wah to my toaster the other day.

PPS - I just perused this thread quickly. I noticed you are using a Fender Champ and a Radial ProRMP. I use that same rig. I have always been a Fender amp guy. I had a Twin for many years, alas it was too heavy and too loud (sorry Greg) for me to continue with it. The Fender Champ? I absolutely love it. Love it. Do you have the combo or the head/cab version?

I have the combo. Actually, when I called the guy on Craiglist, I was supposed to get the head/cab combo. But when he showed up, he said I must have misunderstood. Whatever, I was happy with it either way. But it would have been nice to be able to lay with the head at my desk while the cab was in another room so I could hear exactly what was being recorded. But I'm fine with this. I love the amp even though I'm STILL getting to know it.

PPPS - Greg, they (we) aren't all miscreants. Some of us newer folks really want to contribute and really want to improve. There is a lot of sincerity here.

I don't think he was targeting those that don't deserve it. It's one of those things....When you throw a rock into the ocean, it only hurts the fish that it hits.

 

[jonny deep]

I agree. I tried hooking up my Wah to my toaster the other day.

Did you get zebra toast?

 

[jimistone]

I've never met a wah I didn't like.

I'm at work now so l can't listen. I'll check it out later

 

[kindafishy]

Great man, thanx a lot. I hope you're not just saying that because of the direction the thread took. You can tell me it sucks if you think so.

Ha ha, no not at all! I am sincere to a fault. I think this is awesome. I'm trying very hard to get my mixes to this level. It will likely take me a couple more years, but I'm in it for the long haul. Can't help it. Obsessed.

I agree. I tried hooking up my Wah to my toaster the other day.

That's the spirit! See? Kirk Hammett was right all along. Too much wah, indeed. There is no such thing.

I have the combo. Actually, when I called the guy on Craiglist, I was supposed to get the head/cab combo. But when he showed up, he said I must have misunderstood. Whatever, I was happy with it either way. But it would have been nice to be able to lay with the head at my desk while the cab was in another room so I could hear exactly what was being recorded. But I'm fine with this. I love the amp even though I'm STILL getting to know it.

It does take a lot of time. I haven't really scratched the surface of it yet myself. I'm not so big on the metal sounds so far (maybe that will change under the right requirement), but the tweed and the twin sounds are just beautiful to my ears. Fender hit this one out of the park IMO. It is such a nice amp for recording. So versatile. Without the tones that wouldn't matter, but this amp has the tones in spades.

I don't think he was targeting those that don't deserve it. It's one of those things....When you throw a rock into the ocean, it only hurts the fish that it hits.

Got it. I'm sure you're right. I have had fantastic and compelling feedback thus far. As a (registered for 6 years) newcomer (not sure what's up with that), I am finding this forum to be pretty awesome. Maybe it is not the same as it used to be, but I think it is great, and things are cyclical, so with enough positive influence, it could get back to being what it once was.

 

[Schwarzenyaeger]

You think wrong.

Well how loud are we talking here? If we're turning an amp up so loud that we only use a 57 on it without it clipping, then we're really just limiting ourselves. I'd rather be able to use a nice ribbon mic on a cab and take 10db off the sound to be able to use it if it's just the right mic, you know?

You just get a lot of guitarists that are so adamant that "That's just their sound!" who have not have "their sound" recorded before and what they really mean is: "I like loud" and you can make them just as happy by turning up the monitor volume but get an actual better tone with a different microphone setup.

I trust your judgement though since you've recorded an amp or two before.

 

[RAMI]

It does take a lot of time. I haven't really scratched the surface of it yet myself. I'm not so big on the metal sounds so far (maybe that will change under the right requirement), but the tweed and the twin sounds are just beautiful to my ears. Fender hit this one out of the park IMO. It is such a nice amp for recording. So versatile. Without the tones that wouldn't matter, but this amp has the tones in spades.

Yeah, I've gotten it down to about 3 or 4 pre-sets that I almost always fall back on.

I use #9 (60s British Clean (Vox AC30,) and #10 (60s British dirty/compressed (Vox AC30) for left and right rythm guitars. I put the gain on 10 for both of those most of the time.

Usually my leads are #13 (Fender Super Sonic). Also, usually gain on 10.

I'm a little disappointed in #11, which is supposed to be "70s British (Marshall Major) • “Used by rock musicians who needed lots of volume.” I find that a very weak sound, even at full gain.

#12 "80s British (Marshall JCM800) • “Distinctive roar and larger than life edge.” Is ok, but has an under-lying bassiness to it that sometimes is ok, but usually doesn't work for me.

The tweed setting (#2) is great for clean sounds.

 

[Greg_L]

Well how loud are we talking here? If we're turning an amp up so loud that we only use a 57 on it without it clipping, then we're really just limiting ourselves.

You're limiting yourself worse by neutering your amp. If you're making your volume decisions out of fear of clipping an input, then LOL. But hey, knock yourself out. Turn that shit down!

 

[Schwarzenyaeger]

You're limiting yourself worse by neutering your amp. If you're making your volume decisions out of fear of clipping an input, then LOL. But hey, knock yourself out. Turn that shit down!

Fair enough. You've had quite a few amp tones that I've liked.

 

[Greg_L]

Fair enough. You've had quite a few amp tones that I've liked.

I see your additional edit in your other post now.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The mic doesn't make the guitar tone. Mics have certain tonal characters for sure, but SPL rating is not a consideration. You shouldn't tweak a player, guitar, amp, or cab to suit the mic's noise handling capability. That's crazy. I'm not going to quietly play my drums with brushes just so I can use condenser mics on my kit. No, I'm gonna whack them with wooden sticks and use dynamic mics because that's just better.

And I have yet to hear any amp truly sound better turned down than it does turned up. You don't have to crank an amp to 11, but to get the cab and speakers really pushing some air, they usually have to be uncomfortably loud. Your sleeping baby in the next room will just have to cry for a little while. That's the price of rock and roll.

 

[kindafishy]

I see your additional edit in your other post now.

You're putting the cart before the horse. The mic doesn't make the guitar tone. Mics have certain tonal characters for sure, but SPL rating is not a consideration. You shouldn't tweak a player, guitar, amp, or cab to suit the mic's noise handling capability. That's crazy. I'm not going to quietly play my drums with brushes just so I can use condenser mics on my kit. No, I'm gonna whack them with wooden sticks and use dynamic mics because that's just better.

And I have yet to hear any amp truly sound better turned down than it does turned up. You don't have to crank an amp to 11, but to get the cab and speakers really pushing some air, they usually have to be uncomfortably loud. Your sleeping baby in the next room will just have to cry for a little while. That's the price of rock and roll.

I have to wonder if you knew that you were writing my new signature right there...

 

[jimistone]

I put condensor mics on the drums and my guy whacks the shit out of them.
Are condensor mics not supposed to be exposed to high drum spl's?
Well, I guess it's too late for me to worry about it now anyway.

 

[Schwarzenyaeger]

There are some condensers and ribbons that can't take the sane SPL asca dynamic but we're talking really loud here

 

[RAMI]

Mods, if there's a way to close this thread, or at least the poll, that would be great. Every time someone votes in the poll, it pushes the thread back to the top of the page. This song is signed, sealed, and delivered. I want this thread to fade into obscurity if at all possible.

Thanx guys.