But this fellow isn't very happy at all. He's even made a website about it!
http://www.geocities.com/m_audiosucks/
http://www.geocities.com/m_audiosucks/
M AUDIO sucks! Not my words btw..
- Thread starter Janic
- Start date
Slackmaster2K
Gone
Heh, thanks for the link, I'm going to contact that guy.
Here's my page dedicated to a different problem with the Delta: http://www.slackmaster2000.com/articles/WDM/wdmprob.html
...and here's one by bdeminil on the same topic as mine (his was up first actually):
http://www.iasorecords.com/public_html/images/album/maudia_dma.html
Now, I'm still satisfied with the Delta1010....but yeah, if one more m-audio guy tells me to check my IRQ's I'm going to bust.
Slackmaster 2000
Here's my page dedicated to a different problem with the Delta: http://www.slackmaster2000.com/articles/WDM/wdmprob.html
...and here's one by bdeminil on the same topic as mine (his was up first actually):
http://www.iasorecords.com/public_html/images/album/maudia_dma.html
Now, I'm still satisfied with the Delta1010....but yeah, if one more m-audio guy tells me to check my IRQ's I'm going to bust.
Slackmaster 2000
don't have any problems with my 1010
Pfft!...amateur.
Hey Slack, this may seem like a stupid question, but why not just use ASIO? Does n-track, sonar, et. al. not use ASIO? Is WDM better for some reason? Cool page btw.
Another stupid question: Why not just stay w/ 98se? Why should someone solely concerned with recording multi-track audio and midi on a PC change to XP, or ME, or 2000 for that matter?
None of these questions are rhetorical or meant to be one side of an argument. 98se and Asio is all I've ever used and wonder if there is something I'm missing in my blissful ignorance.
Slackmaster2K
Gone
WDM performs better in n-Track than ASIO. Also, some applications only use one or the other. The drivers are broke, and should be fixed regardless.
As far as the OS debate, recording on Win2k is a much more solid and effective solution than using 98 for most people. Not to mention that you can hash the shit out of it without worrying about performance degrading to a crawl....none of this "running lean" garbage. Your mileage may vary.
Another problem that's been documented on some delta's is that either the input or output polarity is reversed. e.g. if you take an unbalanced cable and run and output to an input, the polarity of the incoming audio is reversed. I haven't tested this yet but should. I know that both drstawl and James HE mentioned it, and I have James' old delta so... If what I suspect could be wrong is actually wrong, then either the input or output balancing might not even work properly.
Anybody who says they don't have any problems with the delta probably just doesn't know about them yet
All in all it's a decent system though. It was more decent before I had any contact with m-Audio tech support.
Slackmaster 2000
As far as the OS debate, recording on Win2k is a much more solid and effective solution than using 98 for most people. Not to mention that you can hash the shit out of it without worrying about performance degrading to a crawl....none of this "running lean" garbage. Your mileage may vary.
Another problem that's been documented on some delta's is that either the input or output polarity is reversed. e.g. if you take an unbalanced cable and run and output to an input, the polarity of the incoming audio is reversed. I haven't tested this yet but should. I know that both drstawl and James HE mentioned it, and I have James' old delta so... If what I suspect could be wrong is actually wrong, then either the input or output balancing might not even work properly.
Anybody who says they don't have any problems with the delta probably just doesn't know about them yet
All in all it's a decent system though. It was more decent before I had any contact with m-Audio tech support.
Slackmaster 2000
Yes..i have had these same problems syncing my two cards together. I have called m-audio numerous times trying to get them to do a replacement. They admit the problem, but wont admit that they said it would work before they knew it wouldnt.
I have no proof or documentation right now saying that it will work but im POSITIVE they said it would in there documentation when i bought the cards. Besides my sweetwater had it in his documentation.
I was really pissed and dissappointed in this and tried to do the same thing.
For this reason, i think it would be awesome get enough people (victims) to maybe bring up a lawsuite, or just complain like crazy about this saying we want a fix or a replacement.
Anyone up for it?
danny
I have no proof or documentation right now saying that it will work but im POSITIVE they said it would in there documentation when i bought the cards. Besides my sweetwater had it in his documentation.
I was really pissed and dissappointed in this and tried to do the same thing.
For this reason, i think it would be awesome get enough people (victims) to maybe bring up a lawsuite, or just complain like crazy about this saying we want a fix or a replacement.
Anyone up for it?
danny
i don't have a delta card, but im up for it. I tried to do that to Ibm about their faulty deskstar 7200rpm drives, but i got lazy and bored and stoped
DONT GIVE IN, NEVER STOP UNTIL ITS FIXED, AND THEN KEEP GOING SOME MORE!
Ok, so say i want to get a card, and i don't want the delta cause of their driver issues, and i don't want a motu cause of their pc support issues.... Whats next? I hear a lot of the other companies are sub par, i was thinking that delta, motu, and i think maybe RME, were the best there is in that market.
correct me?
DONT GIVE IN, NEVER STOP UNTIL ITS FIXED, AND THEN KEEP GOING SOME MORE!
Ok, so say i want to get a card, and i don't want the delta cause of their driver issues, and i don't want a motu cause of their pc support issues.... Whats next? I hear a lot of the other companies are sub par, i was thinking that delta, motu, and i think maybe RME, were the best there is in that market.
correct me?
Slackmaster2K
Gone
The Delta is a good card really, as long as you're aware of the potential pitfalls. I would imagine that just about every system has some flaws.
If you get a Delta, you just need to be aware of the WDM driver problem (if you use WDM), which for some people is very minor; then you need to be aware of the multiple card problem; then there's a potential polarity problem when using unbalanced cables. Those are the big ones that I know of.
Yes, their tech support is disheartening.
All faults aside, I have to credit m-Audio for *having* drivers available in a reasonable amount of time. They didn't wait until 2002 to release beta Windows 2000 drivers like other companies out there. Aside from the new WDM bug, most driver releases have been stable and each one has added a good feature.
Slackmaster 2000
If you get a Delta, you just need to be aware of the WDM driver problem (if you use WDM), which for some people is very minor; then you need to be aware of the multiple card problem; then there's a potential polarity problem when using unbalanced cables. Those are the big ones that I know of.
Yes, their tech support is disheartening.
All faults aside, I have to credit m-Audio for *having* drivers available in a reasonable amount of time. They didn't wait until 2002 to release beta Windows 2000 drivers like other companies out there. Aside from the new WDM bug, most driver releases have been stable and each one has added a good feature.
Slackmaster 2000
I can confirm the recording offset problem with delta drivers.
I've also tested under win98se with old wdm drivers (the newer ones won't install) and the offset here is even worse!
I also have a Santa Cruz card, there is no user control of buffers with this but at 44.1khz I get...
Sonar, Win 2k, latest wdm - 2ms.
Sonar, Win98SE, Beta wdm - 5ms.
You can't compare like for like because my Audiophiles performance depends on it's buffer setting. However, there shouldn't be any offset as the card is meant to send a synchronise signal to the application that keeps all the tracks relative timing locked to sample accuracy. In any case for the Delta I got values...
Sonar, Win2k, Latest WDM - 13ms
Sonar, Win98SE early wdm - 24ms!
I installed CubasisVST in my win98SE partition to test the delta ASIO and got 2ms!
Why is a generic Windows card better than a "Pro" one?
I also Tested using Cool Edit Pro and got the same values which is interesting as CEP uses the MME interface which can't use low latency kernal streaming so I consider that this is M-audios card/driver problem and not the WDM system or the application.
I've also tested under win98se with old wdm drivers (the newer ones won't install) and the offset here is even worse!
I also have a Santa Cruz card, there is no user control of buffers with this but at 44.1khz I get...
Sonar, Win 2k, latest wdm - 2ms.
Sonar, Win98SE, Beta wdm - 5ms.
You can't compare like for like because my Audiophiles performance depends on it's buffer setting. However, there shouldn't be any offset as the card is meant to send a synchronise signal to the application that keeps all the tracks relative timing locked to sample accuracy. In any case for the Delta I got values...
Sonar, Win2k, Latest WDM - 13ms
Sonar, Win98SE early wdm - 24ms!
I installed CubasisVST in my win98SE partition to test the delta ASIO and got 2ms!
Why is a generic Windows card better than a "Pro" one?
I also Tested using Cool Edit Pro and got the same values which is interesting as CEP uses the MME interface which can't use low latency kernal streaming so I consider that this is M-audios card/driver problem and not the WDM system or the application.
Slackmaster2K
Gone
I thought CEP2 uses WDM? It would suprise me if this problem was with WDM and MME??!
The offset issue is depenent upon the buffer settings in the delta control panel. Can you run your test again with both low and high buffer settings (128 and 2048)? I'm trying to compile as many results as possible.
I don't think it's fair to say that a generic soundcard is "better" than the delta simply because it doesn't suffer from a flaw in one of its driver models. They definately need to get this shit straightened out!
Slackmaster 2000
The offset issue is depenent upon the buffer settings in the delta control panel. Can you run your test again with both low and high buffer settings (128 and 2048)? I'm trying to compile as many results as possible.
I don't think it's fair to say that a generic soundcard is "better" than the delta simply because it doesn't suffer from a flaw in one of its driver models. They definately need to get this shit straightened out!
Slackmaster 2000
My Delta Card won't work with anything less than 512 samples buffer - not without crackles and dropouts.
The CEP I'm using is v1 - All WDM drivers have legacy support for mme applications.
I only described the Turtle Beach card as being better in the context of this test. Its audio performance and basic latency is not in the same class as a Delta card although it is usable.
I want to do more tests with some differant settings but don't hold your breath - I need a working system and am loath to mess it around too much.
Rather than test the Delta cards - I think it would help the cause more if we could find out how other makes perform in comparison.
Unfortunately, soundcard reviewers, if they actually test recording at all, don't seem to go beyond noise and latency tests and in the later case trust the value given from the buffer manager. Only Martin Walker for Sound on Sound magazine has started actually testing the real latency but never, as far as I know, has he checked for track offset and I don't think any other reviewer does.
The CEP I'm using is v1 - All WDM drivers have legacy support for mme applications.
I only described the Turtle Beach card as being better in the context of this test. Its audio performance and basic latency is not in the same class as a Delta card although it is usable.
I want to do more tests with some differant settings but don't hold your breath - I need a working system and am loath to mess it around too much.
Rather than test the Delta cards - I think it would help the cause more if we could find out how other makes perform in comparison.
Unfortunately, soundcard reviewers, if they actually test recording at all, don't seem to go beyond noise and latency tests and in the later case trust the value given from the buffer manager. Only Martin Walker for Sound on Sound magazine has started actually testing the real latency but never, as far as I know, has he checked for track offset and I don't think any other reviewer does.
Well i havnt had any problems with my delta 44's besides the multiple card situation. They are good sounding cards for the money, and i find very stable in XP. But just be aware of the multiple card thing if you get one. I bought the second one before anyone knew there was a problem, and they are not doing anything. I would love to get something going with this. I knew i couldnt do it alone but now that this subject is fireing up, there might be enough ticked off people to do something.
Ive heard the Aardvark cards are pretty good, along with better A/D converters than the delta cards. The Aark24 is a pretty cool unit for i think a little bit more than the Delta 1010, along with adat sync and stuff like that. But i havnt tried these out myself, but its what my sweetwater engineer suggested. Also i hear RME is one of the best card manufacturers, but quite a bit pricier. But they are known for their wide multicard syncing and stuff like that.
Yes, like said before, they probably all have there pros and cons, and it might be tough to deal with some of them.
Anyway, if i get enough response things about a this maudio thing going then we maybe can push maudio into finding a better solution.
danny
Ive heard the Aardvark cards are pretty good, along with better A/D converters than the delta cards. The Aark24 is a pretty cool unit for i think a little bit more than the Delta 1010, along with adat sync and stuff like that. But i havnt tried these out myself, but its what my sweetwater engineer suggested. Also i hear RME is one of the best card manufacturers, but quite a bit pricier. But they are known for their wide multicard syncing and stuff like that.
Yes, like said before, they probably all have there pros and cons, and it might be tough to deal with some of them.
Anyway, if i get enough response things about a this maudio thing going then we maybe can push maudio into finding a better solution.
danny
Well, I've conducted some more tests on my Audiophile.
The bottom line is that the recording offset is exactly the same as the cards buffer latency.
All for Sonar 1.3.1 under Win2k and latest beta drivers but the issue was there with *27 drivers. Tested at 44.1khz, 16bit.
Buffer 256, latency 5.8ms. Offset = 7ms
Buffer 512, latency 11.6ms. Offset = 12ms
Buffer 1024, latency 23.2ms. Offset = 24ms
These offsets include a constant of approx 1ms caused by a/d converter buffering on the card and it's probably common to all cards. This can be got around by recording from the Monitor mixer but I have only given values from looping back using the analog rca.
It made no differance which port driver was selected for Sonars playback and record timing referance or if I used the multichannel ones .
Some of my optimisations must have paid off, I couldn't use 256 buffer size before but it worked for this test.
Cooledit is exactly the same though it is using the full windows interface to the drivers and is subject to the kmixer 6db output cut.
The bottom line is that the recording offset is exactly the same as the cards buffer latency.
All for Sonar 1.3.1 under Win2k and latest beta drivers but the issue was there with *27 drivers. Tested at 44.1khz, 16bit.
Buffer 256, latency 5.8ms. Offset = 7ms
Buffer 512, latency 11.6ms. Offset = 12ms
Buffer 1024, latency 23.2ms. Offset = 24ms
These offsets include a constant of approx 1ms caused by a/d converter buffering on the card and it's probably common to all cards. This can be got around by recording from the Monitor mixer but I have only given values from looping back using the analog rca.
It made no differance which port driver was selected for Sonars playback and record timing referance or if I used the multichannel ones .
Some of my optimisations must have paid off, I couldn't use 256 buffer size before but it worked for this test.
Cooledit is exactly the same though it is using the full windows interface to the drivers and is subject to the kmixer 6db output cut.
Stealthtech
LOGIC ABUSER
Perhaps there are issues with the dual card thing, but my AP 2496 has been flawless since they day I installed it !
I would certainly never say they suck.
I would certainly never say they suck.
Maybe you should check - I have yet to hear of anyone using delta WDM drivers that did not discover the track-offset problem when they tested for it.darnold said:
I guess MAudio cut some corners to keep their prices down. I've been trying to get them to address this whole track-offset problem for awhile now. I actually lost a client because of it. I wouldn't actualy be so upset, except that their tech support have been pretty rude about the whole thing. They still don't admit there is a problem...in fact they are extremely annoyed every time I call them about it.
What's the deal about not being able to chain 2 deltas together? Does this mean I can't use 2 1010s together for 16-tracks? I use winXP...
well one thing I always do is use the drivers off the m-audio german site... the german drivers always seem to be slightly more updated and slightly better than the drivers on the american site... I think the drivers on both sites may be the same for now, but almost always, the german site gets the updated and better drivers months before the american site
alonso
New member
Being an MSN Support Agent and used to that kind of questions I nailed the URL in the first try.....Ha!!!!!!!!Talk about having chops!!!!
Enjoy:
http://www.midiman.de