observation on what analog means to most recording school students

[Beck]

that bit about rap was unfair.

No, you had that right. Maybe you shouldn't post after a good day either, because now you're being too gracious.

 

[ellery]

I will admit i'm young {17} but one of the people i work with is a old analog guy. Eg worked in music before i was born. but one of the peace's of advice he has given me is to learn analog. Well i did not see the point untill i did my first mix. Started in protools and now i'm using a 24 track. Big difference in range. Tape just has a sound to it. that i like and that i find most other people like too.

 

[Beck]

I'm surprised at the large number of formal training programs out there right now, not to mention all the recording 101 community college classes that have been around since I can remember. Used to be sound recording was just a segment of a Mass-Com degree maybe EE as well.

http://www.prosoundnews.com/proaudio/education.shtml

 

[bigwillz24]

Well I guess I'll say it, I don't agree with some of your statements...

I'm taking a 2 year program at HCC and we have to learn the "best of both worlds"

In one studio theres an SSL in another studio in the same building theres a Protools setup.

I'd say about 80 to 100% of the students that are there for audio engineering are there because of the SSL board not Protools (we could stay at home for that).

I'll also say that 50 to 60% of the students including myself favor rap/hip-hop music however, that is not the only genre of music we learn how to mix & record.

I pay my own way through school & have not depended on my parents in years.

I have my own little setup at home and its digital because I can't afford an SSL, I'd be surprised If I could afford to buy & maintain a 2" tape machine.

The intention of most students is not to open a home studio (most of us already have one) it is to have a career in something they love to do not just a hobby.

I don't know about anywhere else but that piece of paper you get when you graduate opens alot of doors at least in Houston.

Especially since most of our teachers are in the business (it's like they teach there just to weed out who really wants to make a career out of it then offer them a job after you graduate)

 

[Mo-Kay]

First I wanna say...what's with knocking rap so quickly..on of the first few posts...no need for that.

Ok on topic: I'm 22 years old and about to start an arts school 4 year-course Composition & Music Production.

I got my first computer at the age of 7... I grew up with computers and yet...
For making music...it's becoming less and less appealing to me.
For the past years I have been basically making music with a laptop and a midi keyboard. But besides that, there are also 5 crates of records in my room.

A lot of kids in my school are crazy about computers and keep on telling themselves and others how great it is that you can do everything within the computer...

But to me... doing everything digitally/within the computer no soul...

I've just bought an analog '89 studiomaster console off of somebody, want more hardware, and among the stuff that I want...is a lot of analog.

Don't get me wrong, my new 3 ghz xxxGB 192khz/24bit computer is also on it's way....
I love the possibilities (gigasampling, analogue modelling of vintage gear) and the overview, especially for recording, since what I do (yes, hip-hop) is very vocal-heavy.

But I wanna touch something too! I wanna feel something and it's not the feeling of being at a damn office staring at a monitor all damn day clicking a mouse.

I wanna make music, not be a computer-operator...
Revolutional hi-tech stuff is all really nice... but people shouldn't forget that in the end... it should be be all about the music...

 

[Muckelroy]

Junior YEAR???? How long are these courses? I wasn't aware that recording schools were more than a year at best. In that case, just how "much" does one PAY to learn a skill like this? And what can you expect in yearly income to warrant this outgo. And finally, please clue me in, how does one earn an income while spending years at a recording school, not to mention paying for it in the first place. Or is it like Billy Holiday sings...

Yes, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of formal collegiate sound recording programs out there. They seem to be more common in the Northeast, though. I'm attending the one at Texas State University, San Marcos. It's one of very few in Texas. I have yet to find another one of equal or better quality in the state of Texas.

Incase you didn't know, here's a tidbit about me -- graduated High School last year, and I'm a fish in the program. It's a bachelor's degree -- major in Music, with emphasis in sound recording technology. I guess you can say we're the black sheep of the music program. Most SRT majors complete the degree in 4 years -- some in 3, some in 6. all depends. Texas State is a public state school, so tuition is pricy, but not GUT WRENCHING. Yes it's pricy, but it's a LOT more doable than most other schools with similar recording programs, and it's worth it.

It's one of the few recording programs in which the teaching studio is also an operating commercial recording studio, nameley, Firestation Studios. (www.firestationstudios.com) Firestation studios opened in 1985 as a commercial studio, and was later bought by the university in the early 90's.(Don't ask me how the bookkeeping and accounting works with the commercial studio profits vs. the university's budget. I have no idea.) Alot of the same engineers who kicked it off in the 80's are still there, and have become our professors (or, recording gurus. professor is a very staunch word. they're more like old hippies than anything else. )

As I've made very clear, i'm a HUGE ADVOCATE of analog recording. I guess my love for analog all started in April of 2004 (hey, it's my analog love's anniversary!) I wanted to make a recording of my piano solos, since I was about to stop taking piano lessons, and focus on trumpet. I wanted to record all my repertories, at home, nothing hugeley proffessional, just wanted it to sound good. My first thought was to call up a friend who had a roland 16 track DAW and ask if he could make a house call. (HA!) that didn't fall through. SO, I called a different friend of a friend, who said he had a 4 track tape machine. So, being the complete newbie I was, I did tons and tons of research and asked around, and finally bought a nice fat reel of Quantegy 456 1/4" tape. He brought his Teac A-3340S over, some mics, some other gear, and we loaded up the tape, and were rolling in minutes. Once I played back that master tape, I was HOOKED. From there, I discovered all the different formats of tape, and found out about the professional 2" format.

Now, back to the subject - - about 90 percent of the freshmen who enter the program have no professional recording grasp or experience. I was one of those 90 percent. But, that's the whole point of the program -- to find students who are serious about what they want to do, and teach them the art, all in a college environment. Though I am deeply saddened that analog recording is no longer implemented here, it wasn't entireley the studio's fault. As the old MCI 2" tape machine aged, the studio repeatedly asked the university for funding to repair/maintain/overhaul the poor thing. But the top dogs of the university just didn't see eye to eye with the engineers of the studio. On paper, it didn't make sense that to overhaul a "25-year-old analog tape machine" cost 3 times as much as a "new digital recording device, that doesn't require maintenance." Do you catch my drift?

So, when 7 track cards burned out, the MCI got used less and less, because in the end it had gone from a 24 track to a 17 track tape machine, with worn out heads, and a tired transport. It got to the point that calibration would last about 2 recording sessions before it was off whack again.

Not to mention that a new 2" reel is about 165 bucks. at 30 ips, that's 17 minutes. If the studio has to teach analog to STUDENTS, who do you think is paying for that tape? THE UNIVERSITY! (well, the students are, but the actual tape is PURCHASED by the university) Yet another ON PAPER reason that analog is (sadly) no longer being taught at this school.

So, that's the story. I know it sucks, but you gotta move with the times. Analog will always have its place in the recording world, and I hope I am fortunate enough to land myself in a career that involves it. But, there's a VERY slim chance of that happening, especially 4 years from now. For now, I can only research on my own, talk the gurus at the Firestation about it, and try my best to implement it in the home studio.

-callie-

 

[Beck]

First I wanna say...what's with knocking rap so quickly..on of the first few posts...no need for that.

Don't take it personally -- I just don't care for it. Some of it was fun when it first hit the scene when I was younger, but now so much of it is dark and angry. I'll say the same about some types of rock, "Grunge" and "Hate Grind" whatever the hell that means.

But you're using the word SOUL, which caught my attention. There's no soul in the contemporary rap I hear -- that's what's wrong with it to me.

For rap/hip-hop it's my professional opinion that the digital/analog issue is less important. But I'm speaking for myself not for the analog forum.

If lust and rage represent the full range of emotion expressed in the music then digital will do just fine.

But since you're talking soulful… In that case analog is the medium to make your sound stand out -- to capture a groove that has some warmth and love in it.

I like progressive rock, classic rock, motown, classical, new age, blue grass, electronica, a little country (not much though).

Anyway, digital and rap are related in how they helped each other evolve. There’s a certain symbiosis there. In a nutshell, I feel that inferior digital recording technology over the last 15-20 years helped destroy sensitive and complex music and helped popularize what we have today. It’s a long story maybe for another thread. It’s my own theory and nobody else that I know of here is expounding it. So, though you won’t agree you can now see how rap and digital are related from my perspective.

Don’t feel out of place here. I’m the one who is happily out of place on this BBS.

Carry on

-Tim

 

[A Reel Person]

...

...If lust and rage represent the full range of emotion expressed in the music then digital will do just fine...

Digital was originally touted for it's huge dynamic range, but most new music is produced at two volumes: LOUD & LOUDER.

It seems contradictory, & not a good or full use of the medium, but as always, YMMV.

Anyway, what do I know? I'm just a guy with a Portastudio and reel tape recorder. I gotta wait for the reel to rewind, & all that,... something you digi-guys wouldn't tolerate, I'm sure.

 

[MichaelM]

If I could go analogue I would. I can't afford a machine (and you try finding one on Aussie Ebay anyway) let alone the tapes... But I like the process you use when recording analogue, even with my 414mk2. From my experiences in an SAE analogue studio, the tape rewind gives the rest of the band time to tell the singer that the vocal take sucked!

 

[Mo-Kay]

@ Beck I understand and I agree....the mainstream synth shit has not much soul...

your "to-check-out-soulful-hip-hop-list" (if you like):

-Jay-Z - Song Cry
-Jay-Z - Girls, Girls, Girls
-Common - The Light
-Dilated Peoples feat. John Legend & Kanye West - This Way
-Talib Kweli - Never been in love
-Kanye West - Space Ship
-Mos Def - Umi Says
-Mos Def - Ms. Fat Booty







further...I think it's really cool to see there's a hangout for the analog freaks here

 

[SnaveDogg]

I just find it humorous that most young-uns still don't get the fact that power is still predominantly analog, Voice is analog, guitars are analog (usually). All digital sound modules are COPYING analog. If things started sounding digital, we'd quit listening to it.

 

[NeoMagick]

If things started sounding digital, we'd quit listening to it.

I think most pop has. And I have. But there's a difference to me between things with a digital sound that work with that sound, and things with a digital sound thats trying to be analogue. It's mostly the latter that really turns me off.

 

[sepsis311]

Analog to me means no representation of audio through binary numbers.

ex: Analog Tape... written with wave lines
DAT Tape... written with 1's and 0's

Bill Gates said it best... something along the lines of,
Take a light dimmer for example.
ANALOG: If you wanted to have the same amount of dimming in 2 rooms you could set the dimmer to where the light looks the same, or the lever is in the same spot.

DIGITAL: You could regulate the output voltage to the light bulbs in both rooms to be equal. This is will give you exact lighting of the same intensity.
----------------------
I'd like to add, its not a question of which is better. It's a question of which fit's your application. I like to have a digital rig, and analog rig. Analog rig for band practice, and Digital for the finalized recordings... But some like the taste of analog better. I personally appreciate both for their unique qualities.

I wouldn't want to hear Fear Factory recorded analog to cassette tape...
But i wouldn't want to hear Metallica re-record Kill 'em All in a digital studio.

 

[acorec]

Just an observation on the sad state of attitudes towards analog from the kiddies at school.
I would say that 99% of the kiddies at school could'nt care less about analog or tape. Their generation is pretty much born with computers attached to their neurotic little brains, and that's all they care about. Spending a ton of cash and time going to school and learning SSL's, Neve's, Studers, etc. with the intention of opening a home pro tools studio makes no sense to me (like learning rocket science in order to fly a kite), the word overkill, and waste of money comes to mind. But I guess they gotta spend their parents money somehow.
In any case perhaps this is one reason modern rock sucks so bad. And if these school grads are the next generation of engineers we better get used to it.

One of the big problems with the current schools is that there is no more analog. Studios who use analog and schools who teach analog will continue until the market tells them that it is all over. Digital is all there is for new equipment.The current schools focus on digital as digital is all there will be fairly soon. Why would a school train a person for an outdated technology? Modern rock sucks so bad because modern rockers suck so bad. Digital (and analog) can only record what is in front of the mic. The lack of talant in the music scene will correct itself as it cannot go on like this forever. Although modern digital workstations have saved the modern musician's ass thus far, the $$ to pay the DAW engineers to "fix" the sloppy recordings is slowly catching up to the people paying the bill. It will turn around, but it will take near bankruptcy in the industry until we get talanted musicians again.

 

[up-fiddler]

The lack of talant in the music scene will correct itself as it cannot go on like this forever. Although modern digital workstations have saved the modern musician's ass thus far, the $$ to pay the DAW engineers to "fix" the sloppy recordings is slowly catching up to the people paying the bill. It will turn around, but it will take near bankruptcy in the industry until we get talanted musicians again.

It used to be that time was so expensive you had to PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE before walking in to a studio setting. At least, that's the way it was for us. I think that made the level of musicianship higher than is possible by just walking in and seeing what we come up with. JMHO Dave

 

[Muckelroy]

Just wanted to give you guys an update on the "analog" status at the Firestation Studios, here in the sound recording tech program @ TX State Univ., san marcos.

My current recording praccicum course instructor (Gary H.) is a HUGE advocate of analog. Seems almost every time he's teaching a recording technique, he goes into a segway in how that same procedure would be done in the analog realm.

As the studio stands, the only analog recording medium is cassette. However, the MCI JH-24 and the MCI JH-110 are still in storage. The only thing wrong with the JH-110 (mixdown deck) is that the rubber's all shot. More than likely, we still have spare pinch rollers, and whatnot, to at least get it back into working condition as a half-inch 2-track mixdown deck.
So hopefully in the near future, that sucker will be back in operation, for demonstration, and hopefully, practical studio mixdown use. (CAN'T WAIT)

As for the JH-24, transport is fine, but 7 tracks are not working, and the power supply is funky. We do not have any spare parts for this machine. SO, sometime or another, Gary and I will go through the thing w/ an oscilloscope, a cal-tape, and connectors to see what exactly is wrong with it, and see what can be fixed DIY.

Soon and very soon, analog will come back from the dead at this old studio!! Or so I hope. Everything seems very promising.

-callie-

 

[A Reel Person]

Great!

Hang in there!

I've often thought of donating my dozens of Tascam and Fostex analog recorders, mixers & Portastudios to a college recording program,...

but I'm ultimately too selfish to do so.

I plan to record more as time goes allows, TBA, so I better hang on to my gear!

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

I started on Cassette. I remember when ADATs came out. I remember wishing I could afford one ($2000, if I recall. I just saw one used locally for $300...) because the cassette 4-track (a high speed tascam model) was just too limiting. I was after more tracks not better sound. I had already figured out how to get pretty good sound out of the 4-track.

I wasn't thinking "Oooo! DIGITAL!!" but "Oooo!!! Twice as many tracks!!" When a buddy finally leant me one for a while I was in heaven. I could record in stereo and NOT BOUNCE with evey friggin' instrument!! When I did bounce at that time I was still bouncing off a VCR, though. Not for the "analog sound" but because it was the only thing I had besides a computer you wouldn't even think of putting audio on at that time and a cassette deck. And I didn't want to leave 2 tracks open for the bounce- I wanted them to MIX for the bounce.

But- as usual- the ADAT broke and I had to go back to the 4-track. It was quite disappointing, but... there was nothing to do about it. The LX-20 was out by then ($1250, if I recall- just saw one locally for $150...) but I still couldn't justify the expense.

Then my old computer broke (no, really broke, as in so I couldn't fix it any more) and I had to buy something newer. And it could do 7 or 8 tracks with n-track. It kinda sucked, though. It crashed a lot, didn't sound *that* great and I couldn't use many plugs. I *loved* it, but I typically used the 4-track and VCR if I really wanted to get any work done. Besides, all the analog gear was already hooked up to the 4-track and it was a pain to drag over to the computer.

Then computers started taking off in terms of how quickly they got faster. My next computer was a monster that could do 12 tracks in n-track with a bunch of plugs!!! The soundcard wasn't all that great, of course, so I bought the new Tascam US-428 (Tascam having treated me so well all these years). That came with Cubasis- oooo..pretty.... and it DIDN'T CRASH!!! But it was limited to 8 tracks. So I shelled out for Cubase VST 5.

A few years later, a few computers later- 32 tracks on the computer I already owned and I felt pretty smug the whole way. Its so much EASIER than 4 or 8 tracks!! I never got rid of any of my analog gear (I even had that 4-track until a couple years ago) and have been adding to over the years so I had a good front end for the digital systems. While I can edit like a fiend, I tend to use the DAW more like a tape deck anyway.

Then I went and bought a 1/2" 8 track reel to reel. After all these years of seeking more tracks and mixing flexibility along with good sound... I thought it would be fun to experiment with SOUND centered recording. What is it like to have the medium of the recording, the process itself, as one of your tools?

Pretty d@mn cool, so far. And I've rambled all this way to get to this point:

I have a student -14 years old- who is *quite* the computer geek. He's as native to computers as fish are to water. He loves all the things he can do in pro tools, but has the attention span of a fruit fly... he'd hunt through plugin presets for something weird and call it done...

Then I took him to *my* studio (not the one I work at, which is PT in the box only) and got his hands on the mixer, outboard gear, etc. We piped a mix he had worked on out to the board. He was *glued* to the board and fiddled with the EQ for a whole 5-10 minutes.

Then I showed him the "advanced" menu for a reverb he liked on the TC Electronics m2000. He sat there on the floor for 30 minutes tweaking with it and said "This is way better than the computer!!!"



Chris

 

[A Reel Person]

It's back to the future with Analog!

...............

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

Funny, Dave- I'm actually writing an article about my experience with the Tascam 48 called just exactly that.

"Back to the Future"

Fits perfectly.

Chris