New/NOS vs "Used" Tape...?

[miroslav]

Not sure if there have been any involved discussions about the differences of using New/NOS tape vs tape that's been used?
Now I know there all kinds of "used" tape...from so-called 1-pass (probably no such thing) to tape that's used/abused beyond anything resembling audio tape.
I don't want to go off on some extreme tangent or start talking about SSS or any of that.

Let's just say you have two reels of new/NOS tape...you then record on one of those reels...the typical multi-track session recording which requires a good amount of FF/RW/Play/Rec actions.
Now...a week or two later you decide you hate everything you recorded and you erase it all.
How much of a difference really will you end up with if you record a new multi-track session with all the FW/RW/Play/Rec actions on that same "used" tape compared to grabbing your other new reel and doing the same to it?

There's a lot of decent used tape to be had on the market...and if there is no SSS issues or any abuse that has damaged the tape..what are you losing/missing by using it instead of new/NOS tape that basically becomes "used" after the first few FW/RW/Play/Rec actions...?

I acquired a decent amount of very decent used tape with the purchase of my MX-80 2"...most of it being 499...and I also have NOS 499 that I've purchased.
I've tried both....I can't hear much difference in the recorded quality, and to tell the truth, I kinda like the NOS tape better after it's had a few FW/RW/Play?Rec actions. It's like the tape "settles in" after a bit and appears to become more stable overall once it's been "used".

So it kinda then begs the question as to how much value to buying more NOS...of course, if you have clients that want to use only NOS or you are buying for the future resale value, that's another thing...but I'm just wondering about it.
Mind you...I"m still buying NOS at this time but I'm also stocking up on good used tape too, as it's very inexpensive compared to NOS.
I've got a few reels of NOS 499 in my sights at the moment, at $125 each, which is a great price compared to the going rate of $250-$300 for NOS or new.

 

[Beck]

It's a good question. We have discussed the topic of useable tape life in earlier years on this forum, but nothing lately. A new professional grade high quality tape is good for hundreds of passes, whether reel-to-reel, cassette or various video tapes. Tape brands and models vary, but generally speaking you should get a lot of life from a new tape.

That being said, it begs the question I always bring up and that is, once a tape has been opened (by somebody else) you can't be sure what that tape is or how much it's been used. We have to take people's word for it, and the group of people I would take at their word is very small. Certainly no eBay sellers.

So there are really two questions here:

1. How long is a tape good for once you open it yourself as new?

2. Can I buy already used tape and save some money with confidence in that tape?

The answer to number one is easy. We can use tape over and over, although machine (tape path condition) is a huge factor in just how much we can use a tape on a given machine.

The answer to number two is more complicated and just leads to more questions...

- Can I trust the seller to be honest?
- Can I trust the seller to be knowledgeable?
- Where did the seller get the tape and who is he trusting?
- Were the machines the tapes were used on well maintained?

 

[Chris Marcelli]

I bought used tape on eBay once, mostly for the metal reels. The seller was honest and made no "one pass" or "good as new" claims. Still, I got curious and listened to what was on them. It was neat listening to a stranger's sessions...but man did those tapes lay a heap of crud on my heads.

Is there a way to tell if a tape is going to shed without loading it up?

 

[miroslav]

That being said, it begs the question I always bring up and that is, once a tape has been opened (by somebody else) you can't be sure what that tape is or how much it's been used. We have to take people's word for it, and the group of people I would take at their word is very small. Certainly no eBay sellers.

So there are really two questions here:

1. How long is a tape good for once you open it yourself as new?

2. Can I buy already used tape and save some money with confidence in that tape?

The answer to number one is easy. We can use tape over and over, although machine (tape path condition) is a huge factor in just how much we can use a tape on a given machine.

The answer to number two is more complicated and just leads to more questions...

- Can I trust the seller to be honest?
- Can I trust the seller to be knowledgeable?
- Where did the seller get the tape and who is he trusting?
- Were the machines the tapes were used on well maintained?

That's why I left out the "buying unknown used tape from unknown sources" part.

I asked specifically if you have two new/NOS reels...and YOU open one and use it.
Once it's used by you...how different, and at what point will the "used" thing become noticeable when compared to the other new/NOS tape?
IOW...at what point do you stop using the one and break open the other because of audio quality issues?
Oh...and let's also keep the deck out...let's assume you have a minty mint machine....so it's purely about the tape.

AFA trusting used sources and all that...that's not the question here.

Also...it's going to obviously vary from person to person and situation to situation....but I'm just trying to get a sense of when used tape...has been really used up and not worth using any more.
Like I said, I've compared used and new/NOS...and I'm having a hard time noticing anything.
Mind you, the "used" tape is not exhibiting any physical breakdown, and I can't swear how much use it's had before me....was it played just long enough to track a session or was it used for 20 sessions...?...all I know is that it was used, and I've put a session's worth of use on it, and I still can't tell the difference from a new/NOS reel.
I guess I could keep using it for more and more sessions and keep checking....

I'm sure there is a break-point...but I get the feeling it would take many sessions, over and over on the same reel to get to it....so in reality, lightly used tape appears to do the same job. I guess I'm just saying that there's not so much need to obsess over it having to be new, if it's been used and in good condition.

 

[miroslav]

Is there a way to tell if a tape is going to shed without loading it up?

Kinda hard unless it's a gooey mess right out of the box...if you mean going to a seller and looking at it and deciding to buy or not on sight...mmmmm...that will not be enough.

Usually I'll start FW/RW, and if begins to squeal and you got obvious SSS....then stop.
I have several SSS reels that have come from used tape purchases....but honestly, it's been like 1 reel for every 7-8 perfectly good used reels....so IMO, it's an acceptable amount to discard.

Many of the sellers have NO idea of the condition of the tape, because they have no machine to play it on. The pawn shops and the garage/estate sale items...etc....so you try and gauge it from the listing, and consider the price, and then you roll the dice.

It's been the same with buying vacuum tubes....for every handful of good ones, I'll get a stinker.
I don't get upset by that, because I understand that I am buying used/untested items....BUT...I make sure the price is worth the gamble I'm taking.

OK...so now back to my specific questions....

 

[mdainsd]

With assumptions such as minty mint machine etc. i doubt you can use a tape enough to "hear" a difference. Well unless you made some sort of weird effort to record and erase and re-record over and over for what 100s if not 1000s of passes?
Weve all had cassettes or even worse 8 track cartridges in out youth that were subjected to high numbers of passes on less than stellar equipment.

I dont buy tape off of eBay for the reasons listed above, not worth the effort to me. And who needs more reels after binning miles of shit tape?

I buy it from the original purchasers,,,the studios. i feel pretty safe if Im led into a storage room that has 1000s of reels of 499 that im probably getting 499 (especially the NOS stuff LOL). Just saying.

 

[miroslav]

... i doubt you can use a tape enough to "hear" a difference. Well unless you made some sort of weird effort to record and erase and re-record over and over for what 100s if not 1000s of passes?

And that was what I was getting at...is there a difference...before getting to that "1000 passes" extreme?

I buy it from the original purchasers,,,the studios. i feel pretty safe if Im led into a storage room that has 1000s of reels of 499 that im probably getting 499 (especially the NOS stuff LOL). Just saying.

Well...I don't know what that really means...
...do you have a couple of studios that you are close with and where you get to pick your tapes off their used inventory...or that you have some inside knowledge of when/where pro studios list their used wares....?
Hey...if you know pro studios that are looking to sell off any quantity used or new 2" tape stock...don't hold out.
Of course...get your fill first!

Certainly, I would choose to buy used tapes from Ocean Way or some big name studio if I knew when they were selling.
I don't know if they have some special BBS where they list, rather than use eBay and Craigslist...but even the big studios list on eBay.
A couple of weeks ago I scored 3 NOS reels of 2" from The Village Recorder out in LA...got them for a crazy $75 each...and they were listed on eBay (of course, they didn't use their studio name, but after talking to the seller, I knew who it was, and when they arrived, it was from there.
Right now I've got 4 reels of NOS 2" on hold from a studio in NYC also off of eBay...a little more, $125 each but still a good deal.

So lets be serious here for a minute...
People talk of "sources" as though there's an untapped outlet that only some know of, but these days...everyone is on eBay or Craigslist. If the pros can sell a $125,000 console on eBay, they can sell tape.
I only say this because there's some extremely negative views of eBay here, as though it was all a scam and only crap was sold there. I've purchased a lot...I mean a LOT of great audio gear on eBay. Maybe 2-3 problems out of over 700 transactions during the last 15 years. I don't recall ever having to give negative feedback to anyone...even with those 2-3 problems I got them resolved in the end.

If I was near one of the big pro studio hubs, like LA or Nashville, I could maybe make the rounds and ask for any stock they want to sell off...but I'm not, and NYC is close, but not close enough that I can always know if anyone is selling.

Anyway...at this point I'm sitting on at least 5 dozen reels of 2" tape....NOS and used. Of the used stuff, I have maybe 6-7 shit reels, but they came with the MX-80 when I bought it, and the guy said those reels were not that great as they were the crappy Ampex 456....but I also got a lot of great 499 used tape....and these days I'm just buying up NOS when I find it....I have no more need to buy any more used tape for "just in case".
Mainly, I was trying to decide if I should use all my NOS up first...or use the used tapes and save the NOS since I don't hear any difference between them.

I was curious what other people have noticed when comparing good used tape VS new/NOS....???

 

[Beck]

That's why I left out the "buying unknown used tape from unknown sources" part.

I asked specifically if you have two new/NOS reels...and YOU open one and use it.
Once it's used by you...how different, and at what point will the "used" thing become noticeable when compared to the other new/NOS tape?
IOW...at what point do you stop using the one and break open the other because of audio quality issues?

Yeah, I got that part about comparing two tapes that started as new, but then you proceeded to go into how much good used tape is out there, and I'm not sure I agree with that statement for the reasons I stated, so I had to address both scenarios. Well you know me... I just had too!

Ok, then back to the idea of buying two new identical brand/model tapes and opening one: The answer is hundreds of passes before the tape starts exhibiting audible defects from use. Back in the day the major studios had their ideas of just how many passes would be safe before something might go wrong, but no industry-wide rule that I ever knew about. It was up to the head engineer, but any good engineer wouldn't want to wait until problems occur during a multitrack session that's halfway or most of the way complete. In the first TV studio and first audio recording studio I worked in (1978/79) we used tapes over and over, degaussing them in between. A tape degausser/eraser was a studio staple.

If you wait for audible or visably physical deterioration that's going to rear its ugly head with clicks, pops and dropouts that can't be fixed with degaussing. Of course we know that tape wears tape heads like fine sandpaper, and heads wear tape as well. Every time we clean a tape path and see a little oxide we know part of that tape is gone forever, but it's a long process from perfectly good tape to plum worn out tape.

So studios would sell tape with a lot of life in it. Motown was known for buying used tape from larger better financed studios. I'm sure some of that was one-pass or more like one session tape.

It's a lot trickier now days because we don't have the industry we did with reputable analog studios everywhere selling good used tape.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah, I got that part about comparing two tapes that started as new, but then you proceeded to go into how much good used tape is out there, and I'm not sure I agree with that statement for the reasons I stated, so I had to address both scenarios. Well you know me... I just had too!

Yeah...I know you had to.

I don't think anyone can accurately gauge how much good/bad used tape is out there...I mean, we're not just talking about eBay listings here...and I have to say in my case, I kinda was focusing mostly on the 2" at this time, which is a more specific-to-studios-only format. When considering all other formats too, it's even harder to tell how much good used there is, and when you do add all formats....the odds are there would be more bad too.
I think these days, there has to be more total good used tape...than there is NOS anymore.
I mean....there aren't endless secret vaults filled with NOS tape....but there's tons of used tape.

AFA 1/4" and 1/2"...I stocked up on NOS back when there WAS tons of it around. Had I known at the time that a few years later I would own a 2" deck...I would have done the same with 2" tape.

Ok, then back to the idea of buying two new identical brand/model tapes and opening one: The answer is hundreds of passes before the tape starts exhibiting audible defects from use.

......

So studios would sell tape with a lot of life in it. Motown was known for buying used tape from larger better financed studios. I'm sure some of that was one-pass or more like one session tape.

That's really what I was looking to talk about.
With a good condition used reel of tape, there's nothing wrong with using it, and nothing lost compared to opening up a fresh new/NOS reel.
Of all the used tape I have, I went through each reel, on the machine, tail-to-head and back again, and checked them out and sorted them. The majority were in very good condition, most looking like they were used for a session and then put aside. Heck, most of my used ones came with the audio on them, with session sheets even, so I was able to actually listen to the quality of the recorded music on them.
The few bad reels of older Ampex 456 aside, I have little hesitation in using the good used reels for future recording.
That said...I just finalized my purchase of those 4 NOS 2" reels of 499 I had on hold over the weekend
Gonna set me back a chunk ($530 shipped), but like I said earlier...availability of NOS tape is quickly fading in all formats. So I figure grab what I can in NOS while/when I can...but good used tape is a realistic option.

 

[mdainsd]

Miro.
I developed my network back when I started building my analog studio a few years back. It started with a equipment broker in NY who located my NOS ATR/80 (on the West Coast). I had to work a bit with the chief Engineer at the studio it came out of. We developed a friendship and that opened doors at that studio (literally). He would also let me know of people who he knew in the business that were getting ready to ditch analog, clear out storage facilities etc. So I made connections and that led to more connections. Studios do use Craigs List out here (thats where my console came from), but rarely offer their name in the ad, for obvious reasons.
I didnt say eBay is all bad. Just that I dont care to deal with tape from that source. Now I have my hunt focused on 2" 499 on 14" reels. Can get a complete album on one and dont have to dink around with those toy 10" reels, LOL! Those in NOS are proving elusive, I only have a few to date.

 

[miroslav]

Now I have my hunt focused on 2" 499 on 14" reels. Can get a complete album on one and dont have to dink around with those toy 10" reels, LOL! Those in NOS are proving elusive, I only have a few to date.

OK....I'll share.
First off...are you on the west coast, east coast or somewhere in-between?
Check LA C-list....I saw at least 2 14" reels of Quantegy last night. I'm sure at least one is NOS 499.
I would grab the 14" myself, but it doesn't fit on my MX-80.

Anyway...like I said, when your "cup runneth over"...pass some this way.
I'm always looking for tape and I'm in the market for a nice analog console that will let me upgrade from my TASCAM M3500...but nothing outrageous price-wise. Let's just say, keep it well under $10k...unles it's to-die-for, then I might do something really stupid.

 

[mdainsd]

Im in San Diego. But I go up to LA all the time.

I think you should be able to find a beauty of a console for that price range!

 

[miroslav]

Here's the C-list:

NEW Quantegy 499 2" x 14" x 5000ft reel to reel analog tapes - NEW

 

[lonewhitefly]

In my experience, it does take hundreds of passes ... and I have reached that point a few times! Quantegy 456 holds up the best I think. I had an album it took me so long to record and mix, the first song on the first reel started getting some dropouts and loss of highs over time. I'm sure it was well over 100 passes, if not 200-300. I had an '80s reel of Agfa 468 that started exhibiting similar problems much faster, and much worse ... though it was still an excessive amount of passes that most people would never get to. A '90s reel of BASF 468 exhibited similar problems, but not as quickly.

Both albums were completed without these issues being noticeable in the final mix ... but a couple tracks (from the Agfa reel) were getting to the point where a handful more passes would have messed things up in a audible way. I think there were a couple snare hits or something that were getting distortion and just general 'wiggly' sounding stuff was going on.

These were all NOS tapes FYI.

I've bought used tapes on occasion and have had only minor issues (one reel was spliced and I didn't know it until I was deep into the track ... the splice made a little 'blip' that was only noticeable on certain tracks if you really paid attention). Generally, my experience with used tape is that it essentially performs the same as NOS tape ... as long as you have a reasonable expectation that it's hit or miss.

In a nutshell, I would only buy used tape if it's a super deal and you're hard-up for some tape ... with the expectation that it may be totally bad, or not the kind of tape that the label says. I can tell which tape is which sometimes by the smell or color on the back, so it helps to know what you're looking for.

 

[miroslav]

I can tell which tape is which sometimes by the smell or color on the back, so it helps to know what you're looking for.

You know...I tried comparing once, and found that even with the same formulation the color can vary, though if you look at say, 911 it's quite different than 499. One day I took a couple of inches off of 5 different reels of 499, and they were not the same identical color...close, but not the same....and I know it was all 499.

AFA the smell...love that tape smell....to me, it all smells like fresh money...USD to be exact.

When the 2" reels sit on the deck for a few hours of recording, the warmth comes up form the deck and you get that aroma filling the studio.
My Hammond organ also has a rather retro-smell....that old analog gear smell. It's mostly the oil used on the tone wheel, but it too fills the room after the organ has warmed up.

 

[mdainsd]

Ah yes, Hammond tone wheel oil and hot tubes. What Hammond do you have? Myself I have an X-66

 

[miroslav]

I have a 1965 L-103 that I bought from this 80-year old retired college professor who had it since new and was moving away and didn't want to take it with. He kept it serviced yearly.
Gave me all his old "popular music" books with it.
I've been tempted a few times to see what "Begin the Beguine" sounds like on the Hammond...but I always manage to pull myself back from the edge of that cliff.

I paid him $200, and with a friend, hauled it down a long spiral staircase and into my pickup...it's heavier than it looks, but not as bad as the MX-80 was!

Did you check out that C-list link above for the 14" 499...?

 

[mdainsd]

Yes I did. Im going in that direct next week so I will see if I can make arrangements to pick up a few reels of it.

 

[Beck]

I've bought used tapes on occasion and have had only minor issues (one reel was spliced and I didn't know it until I was deep into the track ... the splice made a little 'blip' that was only noticeable on certain tracks if you really paid attention). Generally, my experience with used tape is that it essentially performs the same as NOS tape ... as long as you have a reasonable expectation that it's hit or miss.

That last line about hit or miss is why I avoid used tape. The money spent on each miss could have gone toward new sealed tape.

In a nutshell, I would only buy used tape if it's a super deal and you're hard-up for some tape ... with the expectation that it may be totally bad, or not the kind of tape that the label says. I can tell which tape is which sometimes by the smell or color on the back, so it helps to know what you're looking for.

That day might come for all of us, but there is so much NOS tape on eBay, Craigslist and facebook Market Place I won't buy used and I won't buy new either. ATR and RMGI are out of the question for price alone.

Maybe this should be another topic for another thread, but one thing this industry/hobby needs is activism. eBay is full of NOS tape at ridiculously high prices. Those sellers should hear from all of us that what they're doing is not cool. The fact is there is no tape shortage, tape is not rare, and the prices are not justified. Buyers should know this too. Both panic buyers and greedy sellers are fanning the flames.

We (as a community) also have to get better at contacting sellers if it is not the tape they said it was and demanding refund. Those of us who can smell the difference have the advantage of course. Even if a seller doesn't officially take returns, eBay terms pretty much make it that every seller must take returns under many circumstances.

 

[lonewhitefly]

You know...I tried comparing once, and found that even with the same formulation the color can vary, though if you look at say, 911 it's quite different than 499. One day I took a couple of inches off of 5 different reels of 499, and they were not the same identical color...close, but not the same....and I know it was all 499.

AFA the smell...love that tape smell....to me, it all smells like fresh money...USD to be exact.

When the 2" reels sit on the deck for a few hours of recording, the warmth comes up form the deck and you get that aroma filling the studio.
My Hammond organ also has a rather retro-smell....that old analog gear smell. It's mostly the oil used on the tone wheel, but it too fills the room after the organ has warmed up.

Scotch 206 is darker than the others and smells like dirty crayons, 456 smells like rotten glue, 203 smells like rat piss ... hahaha and so on and so on