Help Me Decide!

R

Rick Shepherd

New member
Here is my signal chain:

Guitar: Gefell M300 pair --> Avalon AD2022 --> E-MU 1212m Soundcard
Vocals: Peluso 2247LE --> Avalon AD2022 --> E-MU 1212m Soundcard

I use Sonar 4 Producer

I was wondering what would benefit my recording chain the most:

1.) New AD/DA converters (considering the UA 2192)
2.) Another microphone
3.) Another preamp

My budget: 2 to 3K

I sing and play acoustic guitar, folk, pop folk, easy listening stuff. Examples include: James Taylor, John Denver, Jim Croce, Gordon Lightfoot, Eagles.

I was told by a couple people that my bottleneck in the chain was probably the converters, because the mic and preamp are high-endish and the E-MU1212m is a $300 item. I have never heard anything else to compare with the 1212m, so I have to rely on the experience of you folks here. Any recommendations?
 
I agree with that assessment. Your mics and preamp are excellent quality, and spending more money there would most likely be a sideways move.

So in my opinion the next move you should make is get a great converter. I own the UA 2192 and it sounds wonderful, worth every penny in my opinion. It's in your budget as well.
 
Thanks for your response Albert! Can you tell me what you were using previous to the 2192 and/or what comparisons you have made with other converters, and what differences you noticed. I realize this is all subjective, however there must be some noticeable difference.
 
Ok then, since I am new to all this, how do I connect the 2192 to the computer, or is there some more preferable way to do things. I already have an E-MU 1212m card, but how do I bypass the card's converters and just get the signal into Sonar Producer? I'm a newb with this.
 
I connect my Lucid converter using a digital input on my soundcard - coaxial or optical. Does yours have a digital input?

Tim
 
you can run the one of the digital outs (s/pdif or aes/ebu) from the converters into the corresponding digital in of the 1212.
 
Ok, ya, the 1212m has the s/pdif (switchable to AES/EBU), optical ADAT, and firewire. So, I assume doing so will bypass the card converters? Hmmmm, does not make sense how the card converters can be bypassed.
 
the a/d converters in the card convert the signal from the analog ins. you have to assign the digital input in sonar as the input on the recording channel (instead of chosing l/r analog in). you may have to do that crazy patching stuff in the 1212m control panel-- i had a 1212m for a little while and got rid of it largely because of the software panel.
 
I'd go with some new converters too. I personally think going with a ProTools D24 or Mix plus type system makes a ton of sense, and fits your budget. You could buy a D24 based system and an Apogee ad8000 for that price and you'd have a rocking system.
 
You connect the SPDIF I/O of the EMU to the SPDIF I/O of the UA 2192. This means that the 2192 is handling the AD/DA conversion, not the EMU. There is no conversion once the signal is digital, so going in and out of the EMU digitally completely bypasses the converters.

I've used a number of converters before the UA 2192, and probably the best of those was the Waves L2 Ultramaximizer. I've also used the ART DI/O, plus converters on my DigiDesign 002R, Tascam DM-24, Presonus Central Station, DAT machines, and others.

The 2192 sounds the most analog to me, the most like the original source. Converters often sound a bit bodyless to me, but the UA doesn't suffer from that. The L2 converters sounded bodyless and also a bit "spiky" for lack of a better word, I was ultimately not happy with them.
 
Hi Rick,

Yeah, I agree converters would be a good move. Keep in mind though that your recordings are of several, but not numerous tracks. Really good AD converters will help, but help more when there are dozens of tracks involved. On the DA side, excellent converters always help, particularly with the stereo mixdown output.

I haven't used the UA converters, and reports are uniformly excellent. Another to consider is Lavry Blue. A bit more expensive, but modular. You can start with 2 channels of AD and 2 channels of DA, but you can add 2 more channels of AD (or DA) at anytime. This would have the advantage of expansion should you ever decide to record more than two tracks at the same time.

On the other hand, as mentioned, you are only dealing with a few tracks. Mid-level converters are pretty nice too, such as Lucid or RME. I don't know how your room is, but an investment in your room might yield more than spending an extra $1,500 on converters. Also, having more than one vocal mic, an additional but different pair of SDs or a complmentary preamp could be useful too.

For sure, upgrade your converters. You will also gain the benefit of a better clock in the ocnverters you purchase. When checking compatibility, just make sure your soundcard/software is capable of locking onto an external clock.
 
If the soundcard has a digital input it should be able to lock to that input. And you would definitely want the UA or whatever external converter you choose to be the master.

I've found that the difference between a great converter and an average converter can be apparent even when comparing only stereo tracks recorded on either. It does become even more obvious the more tracks that are recorded.
 
Another vote for converters. Mde a much bigger difference in my recordings than preamps.........
 
Rick, are your mics delivering what you want to hear on guitar and vocals? I know they're somewhat more expensive mics but that doesn't mean they're a perfect "match" to your stuff.

War
 
Yes, I am happy with the mics, however I had a chance to upgrade my 2247 to the LE version. Not having had much to compare my equipment to, I say that with a little reservation. Also, I have not had much experimentation with room treatments, which one of my limiting factors. The 2247 mic was missing some of the depth that my voice really has, but I hope the LE version helps. I realize that I am sinking alot of money into a recording chain which has not had the luxury of comparitive analysis, but I don't have any other choice right now. I just want to make what I do have the best I can within my budget. Thanks for all the input.
 
You are putting your money in the right place. You'll get maximum benefit from a top notch front end, your approach is just right in my opinion.
 
I agree with all of the above, UNLESS... for some reason you are very unhappy with the guitar or vocal sound you are already getting - which might imply that you might want to explore some different mic options. But if you are basically happy, then there is certainly nothing wrong with the mics and preamps you already have, and the converter is the obvious weak link.

But, the universe of possible spending is not limited to just mic-pre-converter.

For instance, you could also add a high quality compressor to your chain, if you feel you are not getting a "fat" enough sound. You could also do some work on your room acoustics, if you feel you are getting some comb filtering or other acoustic artifacts. Or you might feel like what you really need is some good quality reverb/effects.

So you see - there are still plenty of things to shovel your money at!
 
Rick Shepherd said:
Yes, I am happy with the mics, however I had a chance to upgrade my 2247 to the LE version. Not having had much to compare my equipment to, I say that with a little reservation. Also, I have not had much experimentation with room treatments, which one of my limiting factors. The 2247 mic was missing some of the depth that my voice really has, but I hope the LE version helps. I realize that I am sinking alot of money into a recording chain which has not had the luxury of comparitive analysis, but I don't have any other choice right now. I just want to make what I do have the best I can within my budget. Thanks for all the input.
Click to expand...

Well I read an interesting perspective (somewhere-- on another mb i believe) on this same dilemma that mics and a/d converters are the part of the chains that convert energy/signal from one form to another and thus are the most crucial. Your point about room treatments is a good one-- the mics and converters can only capture and represent what's going on in your recording space. If you're upgrading because of some perceived problem with the resulting sound, you may want to identify what it is that you don't like-- it may be that acoustic treatment or dynamic processing could be just as useful-- there are lots of folks on these mb's with vast knowledge of these subjects as well. If you're upgrading because you're striving for the best possible chain you can have, you'll have a bunch of nice options for converters including the ua, to apogee, lavry, rme, etc. (way better than I've got) with the budget you have and you probably can't go wrong. I've read that these different brands, while all accurate to a degree, have their own character them as well.
 
Thanks, I will definitely narrow things down as I get more into it. The final two choices that I have narrowed down to are the Rosetta 200 and the UA 2192.

Oh, one thing I didn't mention yet: My monitoring chain includes a Hafler P3000 amp and a pair of Daedalus W-803's, so that part of the signal path is covered.

I am still not understanding what a word clock is and how that fits into this whole conversion process. I hear alot of talk about clocking, but I have no idea what it means. Someone said something about the UA 2192 having one built into it already. Does the clock have to do with the timing involved when recording multiple tracks due to the delay involved when the signal is being processed digitally? Does the Rosetta 200 have this feature, and how crucial is it for recording?
 
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Any AD converter is going to have its own word clock built in. Also, clocking is sent along with the data on SPDIF, AES, and Tosling/ADAT lines as well. You just need to set which is master and which is slave. In your case, the 2192 or Rosetta would be the master and the EMU would lock to its SPDIF input.

The clock is crucial because you can't record digitally properly without it.
 
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