k i got the firebox and shure ksm 27.....now i get decent quality but now am thinking i need a new mic.....so am looking at the ksm 44 its a $800 mic so am looking for mics in around that price. but am wondering would it be worth it with a firebox like how does that work? and is it worth going with a better mic?(the more expensive ones) like would an upgrade be like night and day? cause i want more professional sound. so if anyone uses what is consider like top of the line how does it compare to a mic like shure ksm 27(a entry level type)
expensive mics with not so expensive pre-amps?
- Thread starter antman
- Start date
It's always a good idea to use the best quality gear possible, whenever you can.
But you also have to consider the situation and what you want to achieve with it all ... kinda' put things in context.
Does it make sense to have an expensive mic and preamp when your monitors and mixing environment aren't up to snuff? Does it make sense to use expensive mic, pres and monitors when your room accoustics haven't been addressed (poor room design / layout non-conducive to optimal transmission and diffusion of sound waves, uneven frequency response, etc.) ? ?
And finally, does it make sense to spend $$ in ALL of these areas ... when the source instruments you're using are poor (pawn shop or Craigslist specials, Guitar Center Closeouts, etc.).
At some point you reach a point of honesty with yourself, and you need to come clean with your goals and aspirations. Am I making the next okay computer, or just a demo to put up on myspace that won't embarrass me? Am I going to be the next Bob Dylan, or just a guy with some good music to share -- possibly even a respected local act? Am I trying to be Nigel Godrich, or a guy who can whip up a decent-sounding demo?
The answers to these questions should serve as a guide, and lend some perspective in to how much money you should be spending / wasting in what areas. My personal opinion is that ... if you need to ask questions like the type you're currently asking on a homerecording board, then you really don't need to be over-spending on ANYTHING yet. No amount of gear will get you a "professional" sound. BEING a professional, or getting help from a professional, can. When the time comes (if it comes) ... you'll know where you need to upgrade, and at what costs everything is justified. For the time being, you can pretty much get in line; there are a thousand Johnny Home-recers out there wanting to know what new toy they need to buy to take their sound to the next level.
.
But you also have to consider the situation and what you want to achieve with it all ... kinda' put things in context.
Does it make sense to have an expensive mic and preamp when your monitors and mixing environment aren't up to snuff? Does it make sense to use expensive mic, pres and monitors when your room accoustics haven't been addressed (poor room design / layout non-conducive to optimal transmission and diffusion of sound waves, uneven frequency response, etc.) ? ?
And finally, does it make sense to spend $$ in ALL of these areas ... when the source instruments you're using are poor (pawn shop or Craigslist specials, Guitar Center Closeouts, etc.).
At some point you reach a point of honesty with yourself, and you need to come clean with your goals and aspirations. Am I making the next okay computer, or just a demo to put up on myspace that won't embarrass me? Am I going to be the next Bob Dylan, or just a guy with some good music to share -- possibly even a respected local act? Am I trying to be Nigel Godrich, or a guy who can whip up a decent-sounding demo?
The answers to these questions should serve as a guide, and lend some perspective in to how much money you should be spending / wasting in what areas. My personal opinion is that ... if you need to ask questions like the type you're currently asking on a homerecording board, then you really don't need to be over-spending on ANYTHING yet. No amount of gear will get you a "professional" sound. BEING a professional, or getting help from a professional, can. When the time comes (if it comes) ... you'll know where you need to upgrade, and at what costs everything is justified. For the time being, you can pretty much get in line; there are a thousand Johnny Home-recers out there wanting to know what new toy they need to buy to take their sound to the next level.
.
antispatula
Active member
Don't get an expensive mic only to use it with a sucky preamp, that kind of lineup is COMPLETELY useless.
You're much better off buying a nice preamp with that 800 dollars. The thing is, you can buy a mic that renders fantastic results for nearly nothing (MSH's anyone?), but you can't buy a fantastic preamp for cheap. I'd spend the $800 on a DAV BG1 or something.
You're much better off buying a nice preamp with that 800 dollars. The thing is, you can buy a mic that renders fantastic results for nearly nothing (MSH's anyone?), but you can't buy a fantastic preamp for cheap. I'd spend the $800 on a DAV BG1 or something.
Lo-Fi Mike
New member
the ksm 27 is a really good mic (i own one)
and from what I've heard the 44 is pretty much the same mic, with more features.
you can achieve class a results with the 27 and a high end pre.
(just depends on what you're recording)
IN MY OPINION: you can find a use for just about any mic in one genre or another, but there are lots of pre that are sorta worthless.
"But that's just one mans opinion"
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
In general, a preamp is only a way to amplify the low level output of a microphone up to line level. It's a volume knob. That's it.
Depending on exactly what mic you're using, results may vary. Daisy's post covers a lot of very useful ground here. All the components work as a system to give you results, good or bad. Depending on mic design and how bad a cheap preamp may be, gain requirements and so forth, you might find that certain mics work better with high end preamps while others don't really make much difference. A lot of people read things on message boards that say things like the preamp is the holy grail and the most important part of the chain, or that you can expect huge differences from better preamps across the board. Someone might go out and drop a lot of money on a great preamp and do some A/B tests to find that they can't hear a difference. It seems like a waste of money in some cases. There are a few things to think about first.
As a general rule, the recording chain is a simple map of the order of importance of all your recording devices. Anything higher up on the chain makes more of a difference. anything lower makes less of a difference.
As an example, this might be a recording chain for an electric guitar or something:
Song>
Performance>
Guitar>
Amplifier>
Room acoustics>
Microphone>
Mic placement>
Preamp>
Converters>
DAW
Obviously, having a great performance of a great song is important for good recordings without really having much of any gear. Given that, having a high quality guitar suited to the tone you want to achieve that has fresh strings and is properly tuned and intonated will net much larger wholesale improvements than any mic/pre combo. The amp makes less of a difference, but it's still critical. Bigger isn't always better, and some great studio recordings have been made from anything ranging from a Marshall Plexi into a 4x12 to a battery powered Pignose. It changes the tone, but not nearly as much as what your fingers are doing on the frets.
The mic, positioning and room acoustics all kind of go together. If you have money invested in room treatment, you can get away with a larger range of mic techniques. If you're using a dynamic mic like an SM 57 or something with a nearfield placement close to the amp, the room acoustics will play less of a role. You still have to be aware of early reflections from things like corners and floors in your room, but using a very expensive and sensitive condenser mic might change the equation for you. You could get more of a room sound from having a condenser a couple of feet away from the amp instead of a 57 right on the grille. If the room sounds bad, the nice condenser will capture all of the badness in exquisite detail. Is that what you want?
Preamps have no power to change anything already discussed. It's just a volume control, but consider how well the preamp was designed, and what operating level it was designed to run at. More expensive preamps generally have more headroom and a larger sweet spot, and they help to keep a mix sounding focused once you combine a lot of different source tracks. You can crank the gain on some preamps to impart slight (or drastic) changes in tone and focus. Basically you're adding distortion, and some things distort better than others. To use the El-Cheapo effectively, it becomes more important to understand gain staging and not overcook your tracking levels - a common mistake.
Looking back at the recording chain it might seem that the converters really don't make much difference, but that's not so true. At a minimum, you should have something that can interface properly with a +4 line level signal. After that it comes down to monitors and room acoustics once again - can you really hear what the recording sounds like, or is the room throwing the picture of the monitors out of whack? Acoustic treatment is important before you can start to hear the differences, as well as being trained with critical listening.
Also, when you think about mics you need to understand all the different types. Dynamics, condensers and ribbons. Cardioid, Omni, Figure 8. What's the difference? What makes a mic well suited to a specific recording task? Or not? How can we manipulate the sound through placement?
If you can't answer some of these questions, you probably aren't going to make better recordings by throwing money at the problem.
Good luck to you,
sl
Depending on exactly what mic you're using, results may vary. Daisy's post covers a lot of very useful ground here. All the components work as a system to give you results, good or bad. Depending on mic design and how bad a cheap preamp may be, gain requirements and so forth, you might find that certain mics work better with high end preamps while others don't really make much difference. A lot of people read things on message boards that say things like the preamp is the holy grail and the most important part of the chain, or that you can expect huge differences from better preamps across the board. Someone might go out and drop a lot of money on a great preamp and do some A/B tests to find that they can't hear a difference. It seems like a waste of money in some cases. There are a few things to think about first.
As a general rule, the recording chain is a simple map of the order of importance of all your recording devices. Anything higher up on the chain makes more of a difference. anything lower makes less of a difference.
As an example, this might be a recording chain for an electric guitar or something:
Song>
Performance>
Guitar>
Amplifier>
Room acoustics>
Microphone>
Mic placement>
Preamp>
Converters>
DAW
Obviously, having a great performance of a great song is important for good recordings without really having much of any gear. Given that, having a high quality guitar suited to the tone you want to achieve that has fresh strings and is properly tuned and intonated will net much larger wholesale improvements than any mic/pre combo. The amp makes less of a difference, but it's still critical. Bigger isn't always better, and some great studio recordings have been made from anything ranging from a Marshall Plexi into a 4x12 to a battery powered Pignose. It changes the tone, but not nearly as much as what your fingers are doing on the frets.
The mic, positioning and room acoustics all kind of go together. If you have money invested in room treatment, you can get away with a larger range of mic techniques. If you're using a dynamic mic like an SM 57 or something with a nearfield placement close to the amp, the room acoustics will play less of a role. You still have to be aware of early reflections from things like corners and floors in your room, but using a very expensive and sensitive condenser mic might change the equation for you. You could get more of a room sound from having a condenser a couple of feet away from the amp instead of a 57 right on the grille. If the room sounds bad, the nice condenser will capture all of the badness in exquisite detail. Is that what you want?
Preamps have no power to change anything already discussed. It's just a volume control, but consider how well the preamp was designed, and what operating level it was designed to run at. More expensive preamps generally have more headroom and a larger sweet spot, and they help to keep a mix sounding focused once you combine a lot of different source tracks. You can crank the gain on some preamps to impart slight (or drastic) changes in tone and focus. Basically you're adding distortion, and some things distort better than others. To use the El-Cheapo effectively, it becomes more important to understand gain staging and not overcook your tracking levels - a common mistake.
Looking back at the recording chain it might seem that the converters really don't make much difference, but that's not so true. At a minimum, you should have something that can interface properly with a +4 line level signal. After that it comes down to monitors and room acoustics once again - can you really hear what the recording sounds like, or is the room throwing the picture of the monitors out of whack? Acoustic treatment is important before you can start to hear the differences, as well as being trained with critical listening.
Also, when you think about mics you need to understand all the different types. Dynamics, condensers and ribbons. Cardioid, Omni, Figure 8. What's the difference? What makes a mic well suited to a specific recording task? Or not? How can we manipulate the sound through placement?
If you can't answer some of these questions, you probably aren't going to make better recordings by throwing money at the problem.
Good luck to you,
sl
D
danny.guitar
Guest
Sorry, but saying buying a good mic and using it with a less-than-stellar pre is pointless, is retarded.
I'm guessing people saying that are just spouting shit they read on here and have never actually tried it themselves.
I'm guessing people saying that are just spouting shit they read on here and have never actually tried it themselves.
antispatula
Active member
my point is that you can buy a $25 mic and have it sound fantastic, but you can't buy a $25 dollar preamp and have it sound fantastic. He's better off distributing his budget accordingly.
NL5
Unpossible!
I gotta agree with Danny. The mic is much more important than the preamp IMHO.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
I read an interesting observation somewhere that often times when people are looking for a more "professional sound" from their setup, the missing element may be compression. A modern pop/rock/r&b/hiphop vocal may have anywhere from 1-3 compressors or limiters tacked onto the chain on the way in to tape/hd and additional compressor/limiters added during mixdown just on the vocal track/buss (plus mix buss compression and compression added during mastering).
giraffe
i love negative rep
thank god, people that don't eat paint.
the mic is way more important then the pre.
the cheapest all solid state preamps made are good enough (think dmp3)
but cheap mics (esp condensers) will always sound like shit. (with maybe 2 of 3 exceptions, but all of the mics i can think of that may be exceptions to this are all essentially the same mic, housed differently.)
and about the 44
in a way, yes it is similar to the 27, but there is at least one very important difference.
there are 2 capsules in the 44, this changes the sound a pretty good amount.
and i'd be really surprised if the electronics were the same, but i'm not sure on that one.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
The talented Mr. Gerst seems to use chains like that (#2) fairly often and makes some awesome records.
I think if you're an educated consumer you can do well on a budget. For example, some poor schmucks payed over a grand for Telefunken M-16 MK I's only to find out that they were the same mics as Apex 460's that can be had for <$200.
If you shop used and smart you could probably get a KSM44 and a good pre for $800.
giraffe
i love negative rep
i never said all expensive mics were better then all cheaper ones,
i said that the mic is more important then the pre.
antispatula
Active member
Lots of people seem to think mics are more important than the preamp,
I've never really thought that, but I'm going to have to look into that and perhaps expand my mic collection a mic or two. I can only draw from my own expirience though. I upgraded from an RNP to a DAV BG1 and the difference was quite apparent. Then I upgraded from a mxl v67 to an akg 414 and was not impressed by the difference at all, besides the 414 having a little less floor noise.
very good point. and not just vocals either, I've found that compression can really transform acoustic guitar that is on the thin-sounding side to something much more warm and fat and woody.
I think another good point to bring up that is always discussed but not always understood to it's fullest potential is HOW you record the source (ei mic placement, where in the room you record etc) and then what you do to it afterwards, ei EQ, compression, reverb etc etc and when and when not to effects and to what extent. I certainly learned that slowly, but surely. For example, I usually don't use much EQ if any at all on vocals, but ALWAYS have to eq my acoustic guitar. I remember when I was much more inexpirienced with mixing I would pretty much boost the high end dramatically on everything I recorded with very little care, under the false idea that it was adding brilliance and presence to my recordings. No suprise my recordings came out sounding thin and harsh. I'd much rather have a seasoned professional engineer record a song of mine with a 57 and a DMP3 and then have him mix it, than to have some noob with a "new-man" and a great river try and record and mix the same song.
I've never really thought that, but I'm going to have to look into that and perhaps expand my mic collection a mic or two. I can only draw from my own expirience though. I upgraded from an RNP to a DAV BG1 and the difference was quite apparent. Then I upgraded from a mxl v67 to an akg 414 and was not impressed by the difference at all, besides the 414 having a little less floor noise.
very good point. and not just vocals either, I've found that compression can really transform acoustic guitar that is on the thin-sounding side to something much more warm and fat and woody.
I think another good point to bring up that is always discussed but not always understood to it's fullest potential is HOW you record the source (ei mic placement, where in the room you record etc) and then what you do to it afterwards, ei EQ, compression, reverb etc etc and when and when not to effects and to what extent. I certainly learned that slowly, but surely. For example, I usually don't use much EQ if any at all on vocals, but ALWAYS have to eq my acoustic guitar. I remember when I was much more inexpirienced with mixing I would pretty much boost the high end dramatically on everything I recorded with very little care, under the false idea that it was adding brilliance and presence to my recordings. No suprise my recordings came out sounding thin and harsh. I'd much rather have a seasoned professional engineer record a song of mine with a 57 and a DMP3 and then have him mix it, than to have some noob with a "new-man" and a great river try and record and mix the same song.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
I didn't say that you did. I was just pointing out that there is some nuance to equation.
I own a firepod and my first mic was the ksm27. I later bought the 44 and I must say it was a drastic difference. Even in cardoid, the 44 sounds better. I would say mainly smoother. I have also made lots of use of figure 8 mode. It's a great mic and you will notice a difference. When I borrowed the RNP I noticed much less improvement.
All that being said, everyone is right in saying that "professional" is going to come from better source material, musicianship and room treatment. You will make better sounds with cheap equipment and these things than you will with more expensive gear without them.
All that being said, everyone is right in saying that "professional" is going to come from better source material, musicianship and room treatment. You will make better sounds with cheap equipment and these things than you will with more expensive gear without them.
craigmorris74
New member
Saying the preamp doesn't matter is ridiculous, especially at mixdown with a lot of tracks. I recorded my last album through an M-Audio Omni. Mixing a song for that record took my mix engineer forevever, and was a very frustrating experience for him. Since I've upgraded my pres, he gets a song done in a little more than an hour.
That said, if you've got a good sound, the mic placement and then the mic will make much more differnece in the sound.
A lot of people will tell you not to worry about it, you'll never record a good sounding project yourself, save your money and go to a real studio with real engineers. For some this is true, but not necessarily. The group of artists and bands I'm associated with almost always record themselves. Their releases are on some of the larger independent labels and many are considered classics of the genre. Don't let people bully you into think that all you'll ever do yourself are demos.
Craig
That said, if you've got a good sound, the mic placement and then the mic will make much more differnece in the sound.
A lot of people will tell you not to worry about it, you'll never record a good sounding project yourself, save your money and go to a real studio with real engineers. For some this is true, but not necessarily. The group of artists and bands I'm associated with almost always record themselves. Their releases are on some of the larger independent labels and many are considered classics of the genre. Don't let people bully you into think that all you'll ever do yourself are demos.
Craig