Treble bleed circuit

[PorterhouseMusic]

Over the years I've worked on my guitars from time to time but never gotten real enjoyment out of it. I fix things for a living and while I was playing out a lot it just always seemed like a chore to have to fix or maintain my guitars - beyond changing strings which I did constantly. But these days I'm really enjoying working on them. Not sure what changed - but I'm just digging doing maintenance and modifications and nerding out a little.

Last weekend I gave my JM strat a once over. Broke out the soldering station and installed some old Van Zandt Blues pickups that have been sitting on a shelf for about 20 years, tweaked the neck a little, cleaned, strobed, and new strings. All in an afternoon.

I did this primarily because I'm going to gigging with it again coming up. So I get it put all back together and it occurred to me that I've always wanted to put treble bleed circuits on my strats. Les Paul's too - but coming up I'll be using mostly my strat and it's backup.

So all this to ask.... have you done this mod and been happy with the results? It's technically easy to do - and easy enough to undue. I do like to roll off a little and would very much like to keep that clarity.

The component values are consistently easy to find. And there are a shit-ton of "kits" available. I've been reading - "don't get this, get that". Wondering... does it even matter? Some people seem to think so.

 

[Dave Matthews]

What is it about the pups that made you want to change them?
Just curious, as I LOVE my Silver Sky just the way it is...

 

[RFR]

Over the years I've worked on my guitars from time to time but never gotten real enjoyment out of it. I fix things for a living and while I was playing out a lot it just always seemed like a chore to have to fix or maintain my guitars - beyond changing strings which I did constantly. But these days I'm really enjoying working on them. Not sure what changed - but I'm just digging doing maintenance and modifications and nerding out a little.

Last weekend I gave my JM strat a once over. Broke out the soldering station and installed some old Van Zandt Blues pickups that have been sitting on a shelf for about 20 years, tweaked the neck a little, cleaned, strobed, and new strings. All in an afternoon.

I did this primarily because I'm going to gigging with it again coming up. So I get it put all back together and it occurred to me that I've always wanted to put treble bleed circuits on my strats. Les Paul's too - but coming up I'll be using mostly my strat and it's backup.

So all this to ask.... have you done this mod and been happy with the results? It's technically easy to do - and easy enough to undue. I do like to roll off a little and would very much like to keep that clarity.

The component values are consistently easy to find. And there are a shit-ton of "kits" available. I've been reading - "don't get this, get that". Wondering... does it even matter? Some people seem to think so.

View attachment 149117

Only one way to find out…. Try it. Personally I’ve never been a fan of the treble bleed circuit. Your experience may differ.

 

[ecc83]

I assume you mean the circuit attached? AFAIK that is added to counter the "tone sucking" effect of cable capacitance, i.e. treble loss, as the volume pot is backed off? The capacitor will have no effect when the VC is at maximum because it is shorted out.

How much treble is maintained as the control is wound back will depend on the cap's value, the pot value and the capacitance of the guitar cable used. It will also be affected to a lesser extent by the load impedance 'seen' by the guitar.

You often see such caps across pots inside amplifiers where they are intended to compensate for the input capacitance of the following valve stage (about 120pf for a typical ECC83 stage) This is sometimes taken too far and makes the amp very "ice picky" at low volume settings.

Dave.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I’ve never been a fan of the treble bleed circuit.

Why? Someone else told me the same thing. A friend who lives in another state loves that mod on his strat. This is why I asked - I may not want to bother.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I assume you mean the circuit attached? AFAIK that is added to counter the "tone sucking" effect of cable capacitance, i.e. treble loss, as the volume pot is backed off? The capacitor will have no effect when the VC is at maximum because it is shorted out.

How much treble is maintained as the control is wound back will depend on the cap's value, the pot value and the capacitance of the guitar cable used. It will also be affected to a lesser extent by the load impedance 'seen' by the guitar.

You often see such caps across pots inside amplifiers where they are intended to compensate for the input capacitance of the following valve stage (about 120pf for a typical ECC83 stage) This is sometimes taken too far and makes the amp very "ice picky" at low volume settings.

Dave.

Thanks Dave

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

What is it about the pups that made you want to change them?
Just curious, as I LOVE my Silver Sky just the way it is...

That's a good question - with not a very good answer. I was recording with the gtr recently and noticed it sounded weird with certain pickup selections. And one of the tone knobs sounded strange too. So I open it up and, sure enough, found a disconnected wire from a bad solder joint.

I'd had those Van Zandt's for years (they're good pups) from switching them out on one of.my other strats many years ago. So while I was in there I thought I'd switch them out for the fun of it. This gtr came from Corona with Fender Big Dippers in it. I didn't love those so I switched them out to some Rene Martinez Mojotone pickups years ago. <--- I have these in my other strat as well - but with the "blender" circuit. Anyway - this was just for the fun of it. Just to try those Van Zandt's in THIS gtr.

And they sound great!

 

[TalismanRich]

Some years back I installed a treble bleed in my H-157 (LP Custom style) to keep the neck humbucker from going so dark when I rolled the volume down. I used the Kinman circuit, which is the cap and resistor in series instead of in parallel. I don't remember what values I ended up using. It did help do what I was looking for.

Some time later, I ended up changing to the vintage wiring vs the modern LP which does a bit of the same thing.

You can do similar things with changing the values of the pots and capacitors but that's a lot more work than soldering two parts onto the lugs of a pot.

 

[RFR]

Why? Someone else told me the same thing. A friend who lives in another state loves that mod on his strat. This is why I asked - I may not want to bother.

Over years I’ve played around with lots of different values in the circuit and always ended up taking them out.
I guess (for me) they always sounded a bit brittle for lack of another term.
But it ain’t gonna kill you to try it, you may like or even love it. Don’t let others shy you away.

 

[Papanate]

Why? Someone else told me the same thing. A friend who lives in another state loves that mod on his strat. This is why I asked - I may not want to bother.

Try it - keep it - lose it - our preferences may or may not match yours.

 

[Old Music Guy]

That's a very interesting question. I never really paid any attention to it till now. And now I wonder.
My Tele loses its high end when I back off the volume, especially the neck pup. My Strats, which have Seymours, suffer the same.

Try it - keep it - lose it - our preferences may or may not match yours.

I think it's a good way to go. PITA to do the wiring, but worth a try.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I ordered a couple and they showed up already. I'll solder one in asap and report back. I know you all will be holding your breath.

 

[Old Music Guy]

Just for giggles I just checked the treble roll off on my Epi P90 LP, and a Firefly SG with SD Pearly Gates pups, and noticed the same thing.
the next question is do you approach linear pots the same way as log pots?

 

[RFR]

I don’t know if any of the guitars used in this video have bleed circuits…… but

Bret brings up some interesting points about bringing up the gain on your amp while having your volume lowered.

With the volume pot rolled back the clean is pretty sparkly, and when turned up you have nice saturated breakup.

For myself, I use no bleed circuits in any of my guitars, and have experienced what he’s doing.

Anyway, it’s a good video, have a watch.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

I don’t know if any of the guitars used in this video have bleed circuits…… but

Bret brings up some interesting points about bringing up the gain on your amp while having your volume lowered.

With the volume pot rolled back the clean is pretty sparkly, and when turned up you have nice saturated breakup.

For myself, I use no bleed circuits in any of my guitars, and have experienced what he’s doing.

Anyway, it’s a good video, have a watch.

Thanks - I'll take a look a little later.

Did your Rockman ever show up?

 

[TalismanRich]

If you want to see what happens when you change the knobs I highly recommend you download GuitarFreak. It's an Excel spreadsheet where you can play with different values of caps and pots, and then see what it does to the frequency response of pickups based on impedance and inductance. It even gives a simulation of a treble bleed effect.

 

[Papanate]

PITA to do the wiring, but worth a try.

Circuit is a misnomer - its a capacitor and a resistor wired in parallel - I would say its a .25 on the hard to do scale - and that’s if you don’t have any soldering skills.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

So all this to ask.... have you done this mod and been happy with the results? It's technically easy to do - and easy enough to undue. I do like to roll off a little and would very much like to keep that clarity.

All of my guitars had one. I forget if my first guitar, a Strat, did, but this is the standard configuration on an Ibanez and I went on an Ibanez kick for a decade or so after that, and every guitar I've bought that doesn't have one, I've added one since then.

If you like to ride your volume a little to vary gain at the amp, this REALLY helps - it keeps the top end clear and what you hear is an amp that gets cleaner, as you roll the volume back, rather than muddier.

 

[Old Music Guy]

I highly recommend you download GuitarFreak.

Which version is the one your using, TR?

 

[TalismanRich]

I had v6.6 a while back. I have access to an older version of Excel. You might try the 97-2003 version of 6.6 in LibreOffice. Make sure you enable macros. I think that works.