Volume envelopes vs consol view- when do you use them?

M

mixsit

Well-known member
I just jumped from pa-8 to sonar, and into mixing on the program instead of the analog mixer. So far all I can say is if all this stuff works like it looks like it will- I'm psyched!
Being new at mixing in the pc, I gravitated to the track envelopes. They seem to be more detailed, work very well. I can see going for the faders might be faster. I'm wondering which (and when) you use.
And, just to recheck on this- they are both completly seperate sets of automation data, right? Can the fader moves be seen and edited like envelopes?
( still have a lot of poking around to do)
Thanks
wayne
 
To my knowledge, fader moves are synonymous with envelope data. Go ahead and try it. Make an envelope. Go into console view and you'll see the faders move with the envelope data. I'm pretty much done with console view. Everything I use is in track view now.
 
I'm pretty sure that Chuck is correct. Fader automation and volume envelopes are just different views of the same set of automation data. In fact, I think if you record fader automation it will show up as a volume envelope in Track View (at least in Sonar; don't think the same is true of PA9).

However, I personally find working with the envelopes much superior to working with the faders, because:
1. You don't ever have to leave Track View
2. You can visually see where the automation is located and what it is doing.
3. It is very easy to make precise adjustments
4. You can see the waveform at the same time as you are applying the automation. This is very helpful if you want to adjust just a single note.
5. It's very easy to change things by simply moving the node(s) - up and down, or backwards and forwards.

I'm sure there are lots of other reasons as well, but those work for me. As Chuck said, I don't recall the last time I even looked at Console View in Sonar.
 
I agree that volume envelopes are the way to go. They take a little getting used to, but it's worth it. I hardly ever venture into console view anymore.

The envelopes are linked to the Console view faders, but it is a one-way link, at least usually. A change in the envelope will change the fader. But changing the fader won't change the envelope. In fact, once the envelope is set, if you try moving the fader in console view it will immediately jump back to the envelope level. Maybe there is a way to connect the two the other direction by using automation. I don't know.
 
Neirbo, the way you connect them is by recording automation. In other words, if you created an envelope, either one node at a time, in track view with the volume bar, or in console view with the fader, the next time you record automation you will overwrite the existing automation. The fader is supposed to snap back if you've already recorded automation and you're moving it during playback...
 
Cool. I figured they might be some way to link them the other direction. But I had so much trouble with automation using PA 9 that I never want to go that route again if I can help it! One reason I use envelopes almost exclusively now.
 
Thank you, this helpful info.
I see there are both 'Gain' and 'Volume' envelopes in the track view. 'Gain' seems to be the same as the ones I used in pa-8. Do you know what the difference is?
Thanks
wayne
 
I see there are both 'Gain' and 'Volume' envelopes in the track view. 'Gain' seems to be the same as the ones I used in pa-8. Do you know what the difference is?
Click to expand...
I assume you are speaking of the clip gain envelopes, versus the track volume envelopes. If so, here's what I *think* the difference is.

Gain is additive to (or subtractive from) the track volume setting, whereas the track volume envelope changes the absolute setting of the track volume.

So, if your track volume is set to -10 db, and you put a gain envelope on the track and set it to -2 db, it will subtract 2 db from the absolute setting of -10 (i.e, -12 db) for the portion of the track where the envelope kicks in.

In the same situation (volume setting of -10 db) if you put a volume envelope on the track and set it to -12 db it will change the absolute track volume setting to -12 db.

And now you might be asking , "But gee, Mike, isn't that the same thing?" Well, yes and no, grasshopper. :)

In case # 1 (the gain envelope), if I should later decide to change the track volume setting from -10 db to let’s say -5 db, the gain envelope will still do its thing, and deduct -2db from the track setting (yielding a -7db level for the portion with the envelope). But in the case of the track envelope, it will simply change the track back to it's orginal setting (in this case, back to the original -10db that the envelope is set at).

Maybe the easiest way to understand this is to look at the faders in Console View. With a track volume envelope on the track, you will actually see the faders actually move up and down as the track reaches the envelope nodes where the changes are programmed.

However, if you do the same thing with a gain envelope, the faders remain motionless. This is because the absolute setting of the track is not changing, rather a +/- gain is being applied to it. The advantage of this is that it allows you to play with the absolute volume setting of the track as you try to sit in the overall mix, but without affecting your programmed volume changes within the track itself.

One other thing, if you put a clip gain envelope on a track with several clips, the envelope will only span a single clip and not the entire track.

I hope this makes sense to someone, as it got a lot longer than I had anticipated. Whew!
 
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