Pro Audio 9 Track Slider question

H

HomeRec

New member
In CWPA 9.0, is there a way to adjust only one slider's values, without locking in data for all the other tracks? I've been looking for a way to do this, but it seems that the Record button (records continuous automation data for all sliders) and the Snapshot button (records automation data for a specific point in time across all tracks) are the only two ways to manipulate the sliders.

The reason I want to do this is avoid locking in key points for other tracks while only tweaking a single track.

As a kind of secondary question, does the "Console Automation" track do anything?

Thanks in advance for the help.
 
The console in CWPA9

The behaviour of the console in CWPA 9 is unfortunately very unpredictable. I recommend you set values numerically in the tracks pane. That doesn't help though if you wish to automate the track, of course.
It's probably scant consolation to you now, but it works perfectly in Sonar 2.
 
you can still use envelopes, if it's a audiotrack. If I remember right, just right-click on the clip and find Envelope (Volume) or something like that....
 
Excellent advice from both Janic and Moskus. Set the intial track volume value using the numerical setting in Track View. And then use envelopes to automate the track from there.

If I recall correctly, the numerical values used for volume setting are 0-127, with 101 representing unity gain.

I believe if you learn the program well, you can avoid using the Console View almost entirely. However, most people start there because it is the most familiar to what they are used to. Try sticking to Track View and Audio View (at least for audio work) and you will ultimately find things easier.

(The meds must be working, Janic. :) )
 
Surely the volume envelopes in PA9 just allow you to go from or to a numerical value of 0?

You can't go from say 20 up to 50 over the space of two bars, and then back to 35 four bars later all on one track, surely?

HomeRec! Splash the cash and upgrade to Sonar! You'll save yourself a ton of hassle. Since we all did we now have lots of spare time to spend posting on here.

8^D
 
Janic said:
Surely the volume envelopes in PA9 just allow you to go from or to a numerical value of 0?

You can't go from say 20 up to 50 over the space of two bars, and then back to 35 four bars later all on one track, surely?
Click to expand...
Yes you can (if I understand what you are saying, Janic). The volume envelopes in PA9 were as good as the ones in Sonar (if my recollection is correct). The main difference, though, is I believe the PA9 envelopes were done as a percentage of the original setting. So you could decrease by 5%, or 10%, rather than by absolute dB settings.

But you could change from any setting to any setting wherever you wanted, just the same as in Sonar.

The one thing that was sorely missing in PA9 (at least in the category of volume envelopes) was the ability to place a volume envelope on the Main Out. So if you wanted to do a fade out, for ex., you had to fade each individual track rather than just fade the Main.
 
Is that right?

>PA9 envelopes were done as a percentage of the original setting. So you could decrease by 5%, or 10%, rather than by absolute dB settings.

I never noticed that one! But hey! I'm a newbie..
;-)

Ooo! Ooo! I've just had an idea for a new thread..!
 
PA9 envelopes were done as a percentage of the original setting. So you could decrease by 5%, or 10%, rather than by absolute dB settings
Click to expand...
And you got a new envelope for each clip, that annoyed me back then. Now it's better with one envelope for the whole track, and the oportunity to adjust the gain for each clip. :)
 
I could be very wrong here but...

Ok...this is just my $.02 worth as a newbie to these forums but...

What I have done..and keep in mind I don't do -anything- midi yet...everything I do is all strictly audio...I found the slider automations and such to be -very- annoying in CWPA 9. I had grown up in the recording world with N-track...I found it much easier to use, but the bugs that I kept running into rendered it unusable for me. I go into the Vol pain on the tracks and set all the volume controls to -01 which sets all the volume sliders to manual control. You can do with with just one or with all (I hope I'm explaining this reasonably well here...). I don' t know why Cakewalk does this, but as you record, it seems to randomly add volume levels to certain tracks (I think someone said something about "unpredictable"...after I record I go in and check these and set all of them to the -01 so that -I- have control over the volume levels.

With the Automation track...unless your trying to do panning shifts or volume shifts in the middle of a song/track (aka you want to pan the drums from left to right during a fill), then just delete it...for me at least at this point in my level of expertiese, it seems to cause more problems then it's worth.

I'm not sure if that was what you were looking for or not, but I hope it helps. I had asked many people about this as I was learning CWPA 9 and no one seemed to know or was willing to share the info...took a few hours of going thru the help file to find this for me, so I thought I'd share it.

Have a Better One!
Jim Walczak
 
Clarifications...

Okay, thanks for all of the advice, and sorry for the late reply... keep meaning to check the board, keep forgetting.

It becomes clear that I should probably give a little bit more detail.

First, I am working entirely with audio clips, not MIDI. This probably doesn't make a huge amount of difference, as they both utilize volume controls, but it bears mentioning.

Second, I'm not really concerned with fading ALL sliders at once... my issue is wanting to record the automation of a SINGLE slider without recording underlying automation tracks on every other track (both RECORD and SNAPSHOT do this)

Third, I have, in fact, set up tracks with automation in PA9 before. However, due to the fact that it sets the data for EVERY track, if I then need to adjust volume in another track, I have to wipe out the automation data for the track (a tricky procedure, since getting rid of the underlying automation data in the track itself doesn't always do the trick), then set new data which, of course, can add keyframes to other tracks.

To set up fading automation, I usually find the point for the old volume/pan, make sure it's right, then take a snapshot. I then find the point for the new volume/pan, make sure it's right, then take a snapshot. Finally, I right-click the clider in console view and get to the automation data window, where I use the line tool to set the fade. The only problem with this is the fact that the two snapshots taken for the track are also taken at the same points in other tracks. This isn't a problem if I don't ever need to change any other volume/pan settings in these tracks, but a real pain if I do. (Are these the "envelopes" that were mentioned?)

Finally, the "Automation Data" track I was asking about was not the individual tracks' automation data strips (which appear below the audio data in the track), but the separate track named "Console Automation Data" that appears to serve no purpose except to create an extra track and cause me to have to de-select an output when mixing down audio.

As far as "splashing the cash", I wholeheartedly agree... I could definitely use a better mixing program. However, somehow I doubt that my P2 333MHz system and Sonar 2 would get along famously, I'm already almost done with my current project, and I really don't want to shell out $1500-$2000 just now.

The mind is willing, but the wallet is weak. :p

I'm going to look into the Envelopes option, as I believe I have messed with them before, and you're right... it seems like the best way to go for editing a single track. I just have to figure out how to use them.

Hope this additional info helps.
 
Re: Clarifications...

HomeRec said:
I'm going to look into the Envelopes option, as I believe I have messed with them before, and you're right... it seems like the best way to go for editing a single track. I just have to figure out how to use them.
Click to expand...
No need for the extra detail. We got it the first time. Stay out of Console View. Forget snapshots. Forget the Automation Data Track. Use volume envelopes.

Was that clear that time?
 
Re: Re: Clarifications...

dachay2tnr said:
No need for the extra detail. We got it the first time. Stay out of Console View. Forget snapshots. Forget the Automation Data Track. Use volume envelopes.

Was that clear that time?
Click to expand...

Sheesh... Sorry to offend you... I was providing additional detail because there was a lot of information and many replies to parse, all of which seemed to go in very specific, different directions. Judging from the quote in your reply, it seems that I "got it the first time" as well.

The answer to the original question appears to be:

"No."

And the recommendation appears to be:

"Try using volume envelopes instead."

No further clarification will be given.

EOF
 
Last edited:
Relax, man... We're all friends here. :)

It's just that many of us has been down the path of using automation in PA9, and it sucks! :mad:

And the conclusion many (if not all) of us have reached is that the only way to have controll on what's really happening with the automation is to use envelopes. Of course, this is much better solved in Sonar...

I seriously doubth that Dachay was offended by you, or tried to offend you. He's one of the best guys on this forum... :)
 
No problem... I'll believe it... one problem with message boards, it's really hard to convey tone of voice. :p

And yes, I can certainly understand the frustration with CWPA9. Mine is doubled, since it was bundled with my Aardvark card and came with NO paper manual to speak of. All told, it's a bit of a wonder I've gotten anything done at all. :D

I have to remind myself that Cakewalk was originally MIDI software, and that Sonar was kind of the solution for Pro Audio.

Now, at the risk of getting into more detail ;), how do you set up envelopes on an audio track? It really does sound like the way to go for precision track volume/panning control.
 
Cool... :cool:

[And now over to the problem:]

My memory might be failing me, but if you right-click on a audioclip, a menu pops up. In this menu, there should be something like "Envelope -> Volume" or "Envelope -> Pan".

Okay, let's say you have created a volume envelope. Doubble-clicking on the new blue (?) line (that's the envelope) will create a node. By draging this node up and down, and by adding new nodes, you can create some very complex automations. (The same goes for pan-envelopes, only here it's "envelope to top" = "pan to left" and vice versa).

For other readers using Sonar and HS, there's an in-depth article here, maybe you can use some of the information here with PA9, but I don't know...

Good luck! :)
 
Originally posted by moskus
My memory might be failing me, but if you right-click on a audioclip, a menu pops up. In this menu, there should be something like "Envelope -> Volume" or "Envelope -> Pan".

Okay, let's say you have created a volume envelope. Doubble-clicking on the new blue (?) line (that's the envelope) will create a node. By draging this node up and down, and by adding new nodes, you can create some very complex automations. (The same goes for pan-envelopes, only here it's "envelope to top" = "pan to left" and vice versa).

Good luck! :)
Click to expand...

Got it. Your memory wasn't failing you. Right-clicking brings up a menu, then Enevelope --> Add Volume and --> Add Pan are available. And you're right... that looks like the way to go. Have to make sure all of the audio on the track is in a single clip, or else find a way to co-ordinate the envelopes between clips, but it's a good way to go, using the base volume on the track as a reference.

I actually hadn't even touched this feature before... I was thinking of the automation boxes that appear over the tracks in track view.

Thanks for the clue-in and for the information... this should make mixing the tracks a lot easier. :)
 
HomeRec - moskus was right. I wasn't offended or trying to offend you.

Your initial question was, "is there a way to adjust only one slider's values, without locking in data for all the other tracks?" And the answer was yes, track envelopes. Moskus gave you that in the 2nd reply to your post.

Spend an hour or so learning envelopes and how to use them. I think that hour will be among the better investments you make in Cakewalk.
 
You're right, the answer was there, but the devil was in the details, so to speak. I was really looking for a way to adjust the automation for a single CONSOLE slider, since the console view was really the only way I knew of to adjust track volume short of editing automation data curves manually.

So between that terminology glitch, my lack of knowledge of the envelopes in Audio View, and the various other paths the discussion took, I really didn't get the _answer_, though I did get the _information_, if you know what I mean. ;) In actuality, your next to last post DID clear things up a bit.

As I told moskus, I did find the envelopes - they're fairly easy to use (took me all of 5 minutes to figure out), and definitely better than console view's automation features. In fact, I wish I'd discovered them a whole lot sooner... they would've made a couple of other things I've done go a lot more smoothly.

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice. Some day, I'll have a music computer I can actually run a really good, up-to-date music package on - then I can take the time to help answer questions about PA9. :D
 
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