copy and pasting in sonar 4 prod.

W

willow

New member
yea, i read the last post on c & p ing, but still i'm in the dark.

i'm learning sonar 4 pretty well, but trying to learn the copy/cut and pasting is really stumping me. i remember messing with an old sound forge and i figured the c & p out real fast without even reading the manual, but this seems a little confusing to me.

i can't seem to put it all together...markers, snap to grid, timings??

can someone explain in a "user friendly" way how to utilize this stuff?

i am working with imported wav files and to start with i want to copy a small section (of a bass track) and paste it in another location.

thanks for your time!
 
1. select section of audio
2. ctrl + c = copy
3. move cursor to desired position
4. ctrl + v = paste

and voila!
 
willow said:
yea, i read the last post on c & p ing, but still i'm in the dark.

i'm learning sonar 4 pretty well, but trying to learn the copy/cut and pasting is really stumping me. i remember messing with an old sound forge and i figured the c & p out real fast without even reading the manual, but this seems a little confusing to me.

i can't seem to put it all together...markers, snap to grid, timings??

can someone explain in a "user friendly" way how to utilize this stuff?

i am working with imported wav files and to start with i want to copy a small section (of a bass track) and paste it in another location.

thanks for your time!
Click to expand...

There is more than one way of skinning this particular cat but U haven't got the heart to go over the procedure yet again. I really don't understand what you don't understand...

Keep it simple... stop worrying about markers for a start off... and go back over that last thread again... we covered a number of methods there, surely one of them must work for you? If not, then if I've got more time later this week I'll hold your hand through the process with screen shots and the like.

It really is easy and you'll kick your self when you finally realise that...

in the meantime, hang on in there;)
 
thanks sync.. i might take you up on that if i don't get anywhere.

i guess, the more options a program gives you, the more there is to learn. thats why the older programs were easier.. less options!

i know this is simple once you know how to get around, but a simple thing can be frustrating with all the varibles of settings. take for example...

blueroom... ok, lets start with #1 (select section of audio)

i have my select tool on, and when i go to select the background turns black (btw, what does that mean when the screen turns black??)and i can't select (it goes to drag and drop) and the marker gets in the way.

so, if we can do this a step at a time.. with me telling you my obstacles, that would be great.

thanks guys!!
 
OK Willow,

Let's start with some screen shots then... a picture paints a thousand words as they say...

I'm confused about your statement "and when i go to select the background turns black (btw, what does that mean when the screen turns black??)"

Do you mean the whole screen turns black? I've never seen that before. Are you in Track View? Lets see a screen dump of that so we know what we are talking about here. Do you know how to do screen dumps and post them on this forum? If not, we'll go through that first.

In the meantime, I'll post some screenshots of the process that I go through. My screenshots may look slightly different to yours because I'm on Sonar 5 SE but the principles should be the same.

This first one shows the Global Options dialog box with the Editing tab visible so you can see the setting that I use. Not everyone does this but it works for me:-

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/1.jpg

This next one is a shot of a test song in Track View and you can see that I have 5 audio tracks visible, each with some audio data (clips). Also note that the Now Time marker, which is a straight vertical line, is at measure (or bar) 3. It's important to understand that, at this time, you need to set grid snap on and perhaps set the snap value to at least Whole Note or even Measure so that you know for certain that the Now Time marker is bang on the start of the bar. Alternatively (I hardly ever use this) you can type in the Now position box and set the marker location that way. You can also see along the top of the tracks the song markers called Intro, Verse, Prechorus and Chorus.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/2.jpg

The next shot shows that I have selected all of the audio clips. I could just as easily have just selected one clip, and just that clip would have turned black, but the purpose of this exercise (that I originally did for another chap asking the same question) is to lengthen the Prechorus section by 1 bar. The way that I select clips in this situation is hold down my control key at the same time as I am selecting the clips, so each time I click on a clip it is added to the selection set.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/3.jpg

This next shot shows that I have split all five clips and you do this by simply pressing the "s" key on your computer keyboard. Because the Now Time marker was at bar 3 when I pressed "s", it split all of the clips at that position.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/4.jpg

The next shot shows that I have now selected all of the Audio clips to the right of the split. I have also positioned the Now Time marker at bar 4. I am now about to split the selected clips at bar 4 using the above procedure.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/5.jpg

The next shot shows the clips now split. Please note that each time you split a clip the part to the left of the split always stays highlighted.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/6.jpg

The next shot shows that I have now selected all the clips to the right of bar 4. This is so that I can move them over by one bar and therefore leave a gap of one bar between bar 4 and bar 5. The move is done simply by clicking and holding the left mouse button on any of the highlighted clips and dragging everything to the right. It's really important that you have snap set to on.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/7.jpg

This next shot shows the gap that has been created after the move.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/8.jpg

This next shot shows that I have now selected all of the one bar long clips between bar 3 and bar 4.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/9.jpg

The next shot shows that I have copied the previously selected clips into the adjacent empty bar. The way I do this is hold down my shift key and then click on one of the clips... keep that left mouse button held down or else you'll end up deselecting the clips that your mouse is not touching. Now carefull move those clips... still holding that shift key down... one bar to the right and hey presto!

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/10.jpg

This last shot (phew) shows that I have dragged the song marker labled Chorus to the right by one bar, to bar 5, which is now the new start position of the chorus. The prechorus section has been extended by one bar.

http://www.synkrotron.com/images/sonar/11.jpg



I hope that most of that makes sense. I'm at work at the moment and I was going from my (failing) memory. If I get chance I'll recheck what I typed when I get home and post amendments if needed. Or no doubt others will drop by and put me right in the usual fasion;)


good luck

andy
 
That took some time Synkrotron. :cool: :cool:

Here is another way:

locate an area you want to copy, lets say a measure.

put the mouse on it but dont click.

press alt( and hold it)and then click and drag the mouse. The measure will be darkened

Right click and press copy. You copied it!

To paste, just put the mouse ( pointer) where you want to drop it, right click and press paste. VOILA.
 
That took some time Synkrotron.
Click to expand...

dood, it might have taken a long time to explain but to actually execute the task takes less than 30 seconds :p try it for yourself ;)

at the end of the day you have to do it the way your are comfortable with... that's the wasy I've been doing it for some time :D
 
Synkrotron said:
dood, it might have taken a long time to explain but to actually execute the task takes less than 30 seconds :p try it for yourself ;)
Click to expand...
I meant that the screen shots and the like took a long time. :cool:

As far as the process, I work at lightning speeds because I am a classical arranger. The whole cutting/trimming/splitting/pasting stuff I got going ON :D I do it all with right-clicking, I literally am doing thousands of edits per tune!

Right-click RULES on Sonar :cool: :D
 
DavidK said:
I meant that the screen shots and the like took a long time. :cool:

As far as the process, I work at lightning speeds because I am a classical arranger. The whole cutting/trimming/splitting/pasting stuff I got going ON :D I do it all with right-clicking, I literally am doing thousands of edits per tune!

Right-click RULES on Sonar :cool: :D
Click to expand...


hehe... sorry young man, I never read your post properly ;)

I do use the right click for certain things but never bothered using it with the cut'n'paste operations... kinda got used to doing it that way. I can certainly see the advantages of doing it your way and you can move around the song a lot quicker by typing in the part of the song you want to go to... then right click paste... I should give it a go myself one day.

Like most software, and I work as a designer using AutoCAD in my day job, there's more than one way of doing what is essentially the same thing and I guess I'm just too lazy to try other ways once I've got something working.


cheers


andy
 
i was working with one of the tutorials (only one in audio!! all of them are in midi..that sucks)

anyway, i was getting around pretty good because the measures are lined up.

i was wondering...when i imported the song (wavs) i did not tell sonar what tempo, (don't remember) so does that mean that the measures are not counted right on my tracks? and that i won't be able to cut and paste using measures?

thanks
 
willow said:
i was wondering...when i imported the song (wavs) i did not tell sonar what tempo, (don't remember) so does that mean that the measures are not counted right on my tracks? and that i won't be able to cut and paste using measures?

thanks
Click to expand...
Yeah, pretty much. The default tempo in Sonar is 100 bpm. So unless you lucked out and the song was recorded at 100 bpm, your measures won't align.

However, if you know the BPM of the imported audio, you should be able to change the Sonar settings after the fact.

I use this technique when trying to figure out the tempo of a commercial song. Drop the wave into Sonar with a click track enabled, and adjust the BPM until the click matches the song's tempo. (In this process you can always tell when a group recorded to a click track and when they didn't. If they didn't use a click, the tempo will drift.)
 
ok, i'm back at it

well, i counted out measures to a click and it's 220 bpm, but when i insert 220 in "new tempo", it still doesn't line up! maybe since this was originally in a different format (aw16) and converted to wavs, it somehow got changed a little?

i don't know, but since i can't line up measures, i'm still having a time trying to learn the cut/copy&pasting !! man, i'm learning sonar pretty good intuitively, but this C&P ing is really getting to me. i tried many suggestions, but it seems that certain settings here and there are just keeping me from advancing.

as hard as you guys try to help me, there seems to be something eluding me. something that should be easier than the other stuff i learned!!

so.. since i don't have the measures counted right, what would be the easiest way to copy and paste something... selecting the audio and making sure the location of the paste fits in??

i learned the insert marker while playing trick (F11) ... how could i utilize this for copying and pasting?

hang in there guys.. i will get it soon!!.. thanks for the help!
 
i learned the insert marker while playing trick (F11) ... how could i utilize this for copying and pasting?
Click to expand...

markers only really help in a visual sense. You can select regions between markers by clicking in the very top section of the track view but I'm not sure, in fact I'm almost certain that this won't help you.

And the thing that I'm concerned about most now is not your ability to cut and paste in Sonar but the tempo of your song.

It is very difficult to import a song that has been recorded outside of Sonar. You need to know a couple of things first. It is true that, by trial and error, you can hit it on the nail and suss out the tempo so that the whole imported track line up to your measures from beginning to end... providing that the song was at least recorded to a click in the first place.

If you are trying to import a track that was recorded in free time, and which may not be the same tempo all the way through the song, then you have given yourself an uphill task I'm afraid. It's not impossible, and I have imported songe that me and my band have recorded during rehearsals. But it ain't easy and you'll need to be prepared to put some hours in slaving over a hot PC.

Personally, I would consider re-recording the whole thing again but this time to a click track. There will still be a couple of timing issues but nowhere near as much as you are experiencing now.

And if you are cutting and copying pieces around that are at slightly different tempos then you'll need to get into time stretching which, IMO, is a right pain in the backside and I've not had much success with that process myself.



anyways... keep the faith ;)


andy
 
yes, the song was recorded with a click. in fact, i can hear the click bleeding through on certain tracks. (yea, not very good recording techniques!) i remember the click was horrible on this machine (aw16g) it just had one option of click sound, i think, and it was not very friendly!

it would be nice to record it over again, but i don't have that option. the guitar player did the recordings. he was a much better guitar player than engineer! (good thing i'm learning, so i can do it better.. hopefully)anyway, he left town and it would be very hard to find someone to play it like him.

although, i would like to record the drums and bass over again sometime..that will open another can of worms!

btw, i play drums and composed the song.

if you would like to hear it... go to garageband.com and in "search" band name is ... cosmic warrior . the song i'm working on at the moment is "the last mirage"

not trying to plug my work, but if you hear it, you can get an idea of what i'm working on. (it's a very bad mix, that is what i'm trying to fix now. i got everything ready except the couple of parts i want to C&P !!)

i'm also working on mixing the songs without drums to do a drum clinic. that is easier!

as far as the C&P ing... i'll keep trying. if you guys have anymore suggestions and tricks, let me know.

thanks for your time everyone
 
Just listened to The Last Mirage... great drumming and I enjoyed the track... this is the sort of stuff I listen to from day to day:)

Click track bleeding onto the track is not necessarily a bad thing and it can sometimes be an aid to lining up your tracks when importing them into your software. I recently recorded the drummer in the band I'm in at his garage and the click track got onto the recording via the headphones. They were closed back headphones but the click was still loud enough to make it onto the tracking... but because it was quite low it didn't adversley affect the recording.

So, if you recorded to a click, what was the BPM set to on the AW16G? This may help but then again there may be a slight discrepancy between the timing of the AW16G and Sonar. It is possible in Sonar to set the tempo to fractions of a beat, that is say 120.23BPM... you may be able to suss your exact BPM that way.

The other thing to try would be time stretch but as I said earlier, I've not had much success with that in Sonar.

Try this... You say your song BPM is 220BPM. How long does it actually last between a set number of bars? Not good to just use the song length (which is 6:34 for yours), but use say 20 or 30 bars... how long is the song over this number of bars. It it is exactly 220 bmp and your song is 4/4 (I can't remember now if it was or not and I've shut the garageband window down) then it should take 110 seconds... is it? Or does it finish before or after that time?



About the cut and paste thing... I'm wondering if it's worth considering trying something like Net Meeting? I've never used it before but I believe that you would be able to give control of your PC to me... yeah I know... big security issues here, but I reckon that the only way I can get you into the C'N'P thing now is to show you at your PC but I live just a little bit too far away.

Have a think about it and in the meantime I'll see if I can suss out Net Meeting a bit more.



andy
 
thanks for listening, sync, i'm glad you liked it

and also thanks for your offer. that is a good idea. let me think about it.

i even thought of offering someone to come stay at my mexico house for a week or so and give me a class! :) (i live, most of the time, in morelia, michoacan. beautiful city and nice weather year round!) this is how bad i want to learn... i have actually thought of putting an ad!!

you know, reading the books and the manuals is ok, but there is nothing like learning on a puter with someone who is an expert. i have been playing drums for more than 30 years, and have done a lot of studio work, even for a few famous people, but i always just got to the studio and played and never learned much about recording. they say i'm a good producer, i have the ears, but now all that is missing is more knowledge of engineering. there is so much to learn that it is kind of overwhelming me!

anyway, i guess with the help of you guys on these forums, i will eventually learn more.

i will be getting back to the c&p and will let you know of my progress.

gracias
 
well, i have been mixing in the mean time. i kinda gave a break to trying to figure out that "copy & paste without the measures lined up" thing. but now i have to figure it out!

sync... HELP!!

how can we do it? how does that netmeeting thing work? i'm on a slow dialup in mexico at the moment.

what about instant messaging? (at your convenience of course)

gracias amigos

(btw, i'm from texas.. just live here in mex most of the time with my girlfriend.. sick of that texas heat)
 
Hiya dood,

Still not cracked it then? Don't worry, we'll sort it some how.

Net Meeting would be better because I would be able to take over Sonar and actually show you, as if I was there, how I would C&P.

Two things may be a problem though... a) your slow dial-up connection and b) the time difference.

I'm in the UK and at the moment we are one hour ahead of GMT. According to this site it is around 1:00 at the moment over there and here it is 7:00 so I'm exactly six hours ahead of you. I could make myself available at around 20:00 and 22:00 in the evenings which would be around 14:00 to 16:00 at your's. Is that too early? I could probably sit it out till 23:00... but I'm usually early to bed midweek because I get up early. It may be better to try this at the weekend instead... really depends on whether we are free at the same time.

Let me check more into Net Meeting... I'll try it out with someone I know... I'd rather get to grips with it first rather than trying to learn the ropes while we are also trying to crack Sonar.

Hang in there for now and I'll get back to you.


andy
 
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