Where's the punch?

[Mark V]

I just bought a matched pair of Marshall MXL 603s and a used Fostex VF08 to begin recording my acoustic fingerstyle stuff. The problem is that I have the gain turned all the way up and I am as close to the microphone as is possible, and I'm still not getting as high a signal as I expect. The tone is okay, but it sounds distant. I've tried all of the standard mic placement configurations, but I'm still not getting that immediacy I experience in other's recordings. I'm using the phantom power from the recorder. Do I need a mic preamp to boost the signal? Is this something I should look to boost when mixing? I'm a recording neophyte; anything else I'm missing?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[Big Kenny]

Where's the phantom power coming from? Oops sorry, thought it was one of those red ones that does not have phantom power. You have the trim controls turned up? A lot of those digi recorders require you to turn the trim pots very high before you get a noticeable and recordable signal

 

[Mark V]

Yes, I have the trims all the way up, and I'm not even close to saturation.

 

[Big Kenny]

Not to dis you but....
1) Phantom is on
2) Trim pots are high
3) Mics are assigned to the proper channel ( i.e Channel one isn't assigned elsewhere, like channel 9 or something
4) Some weird insert effect left on
5) Fader at unity
6) Master at unity
7) cords are verified working order
8) Pan at 12 o'clock (might not matter)
9) I don't know

 

[OneRoomStudios]

You might need a pre, or might have a bad pair of mics. When you say "immediacy" though, I think that's more a function of a little compression/limiting than of the volume. Keep playing around with it though...maybe it will start working.

 

[Bodhisan]

It also depends on the volume you're getting from your fingerpicking. If you're a soft picker, you will not get a strong input signal from the built-in pres (or most average pres). When I record the softest finger-picking I do, I have my pres turned up all the way, and the signal still isn't where you'd "like" it to be. And unfortunately with SDCs, their noise is a little higher than using a LDC, so you'll also be getting some mike noise.

This is probably one of the few recording situations, i.e. playing soft, solo stuff, in my humble experience, where not having the most incredible gear out there hinders us home recorders somewhat from getting pro-quality sound. But, as you'll find out from more time spent on this forum, ain't everybody going to agree with me. Try everything everybody has to offer. That's what I do. Some opinions work and some don't.

 

[Armistice]

Mark

I've recorded lots of acoustic fingerstyle stuff using MXL603s and a Yamaha AW4416. I also had signal problems in that I couldn't really get much so in the end I had to buy an outboard preamp to get a hotter signal. The AW's pres just aren't that powerful.

I bought two pres, a Mindprint Envoice and Presonus MP20 (2 channel) - the Mindprint has gain to burn but the MP20 is still "quiet" in terms of gain and clips easily long before I have it turned up to max. The MP20 sounds better than the Yammie pres though.

Another point to make is that you may not need as much signal as you think you do, especially with 2 mics and using 24 bit recording. In the end the solution I mainly use is to use my main mic (now an AKG 451) through the Mindprint so I have a good base, then a second mic wherever sounds good, plus a DI feed from the pick up and balance those three tracks pan and volumewise to get the sound I'm after. I'll then take a copy of the main track (451) and eq it to hell in the mid freqs and also compress the crap out of it so that it sounds absolutely awful on its own and feed a small amount of it back in as well and it really "boosts" the sound (if that's what I need). This gives enough volume so that I'm not hearing hiss during normal playing, and I'm not playing all that loudly with what I do.

The final trick I employ is, where there's a "ringing chord" or held note and nothing else happening and the hiss starts to become apparent, I'll automate a low pass filter sweeping down over the high frequencies starting at 15 kHz and down as far as sounds good, often to 3 or 4 kHz at the end of the note/chord, then flick it straight back out of the way when the next note/chord is struck. Quite effective at reducing noise and doesn't really affect the sound that much - takes practice though.

I have no issues with volume on purely acoustic stuff, in fact they're normally louder than the stuff I do with electrics and drums and I have to turn them down in the master.

The simple answer is that there's no easy way of doing what you're trying to do, but with patience and a few techniques it can be done. Don't mic too closely either in your search for signal - you may like the sound you get a little further out and if you need more signal and noise isn't an issue, simply copy the track recorded and place it in exactly the same place pan-wise and have them both going at the same time. That alone gives you about 3dB of extra sound, I believe.

Keep trying and good luck...

 

[mshilarious]

I bought two pres, a Mindprint Envoice and Presonus MP20 (2 channel) - the Mindprint has gain to burn but the MP20 is still "quiet" in terms of gain and clips easily long before I have it turned up to max. The MP20 sounds better than the Yammie pres though.

There is something very wrong here. I don't have an MXL603 but I do have an MP20 and there is no way you are clipping the MP20 when the gain level is low. The MP20 has headroom to +28dBu.

I don't know exactly what is happening, since the AW4416 and the MP20 both run on +4dBu, but if you listen via the headphone amp on the MP20, and you're clipping the MP20 at say +40dB gain with a fingerstyle guitar, something just ain't right.

As for noise, 17dB is a decent spec. If you are hearing noise, it's probably from something in the room--vents, flourescent lights, the hum from your gear, etc. Minimize that stuff and you'll get a few precious dB of dynamic range back.

 

[Armistice]

It's all relative mshilarious - maybe I'm just comparing inaccurately to the Mindprint device but I can get the MP20 up to about 3/4 of knob turn or a bit more without clipping, bearing in mind I have a heavy thumb and tend to max out the bass strings too much - after that it clips, when transferred to the AW4416 it's several notches below the gain I can get with the Mindprint - so I'm speaking only in relative terms, and perhaps my "long before" was not as accurate as it should have been, meant in terms of gain rather than Presonus knob position, comparing to the Mindprint. I've minimised everything that can be minimised in terms of ambient noise and I record in as close to a silent room as you can get, there is no gear hum apart from the self noise of the equipment.

I like the sound of the MP20 better than the Mindprint on acoustic guitar but I've found it difficult to get any more gain than the AW's underpowered pres. It doesn't really matter now anyway as I've finished recording and won't be starting it again in the next 12 months so I'm not currently seeking a solution, just trying to help out Mark whose experiences seem to mirror my own early fumblings, but thanks for your input, I've always wondered about whether the MP20 had sufficient gain (and others have suggested it does) or whether the Mindprint just had masses of it.

Cheers

 

[mshilarious]

or whether the Mindprint just had masses of it.

That could be, I don't doubt that.

3/4 gain on the MP20 should be +57dB total gain, which added to the mic sensitivity of (guessing here) -40dBV at 94dBSPL, less say 20dBSPL for a quiet fingerpicked guitar is -3dBV or around -1dBu. Certainly that is not as loud as you'd want for the AW4416, but what I don't understand is why it clips.

 

[Bodhisan]

Armistice -- nice trick. I like it.

Bodhisan

 

[Mark V]

Thanks all for taking time to help a newbie recorder. So, I'm getting the feeling that the preamp on my digital recorder needs a little help. I guess I'll look into a mic preamp.

Mark

 

[Mark V]

Whoa, I just looked at the price of the MP20! Can anyone recommend a decent, less expensive preamp?

Thanks again!

Mark

 

[Big Kenny]

And your price range is..........

 

[freshmattyp]

M-Audio DMP-3 should do nicely for what you want and not ding your wallet too badly.

$159 from 8th Street. You may be able to do a little better on Ebay.

 

[Herm]

I would get rid of the Fostex. If it is going to come with a pair of preamps that wont work I would get my money back and buy a recorder that does.
There seems to be to many of thease problems with stand alone units that everyone is just putting up with.
It wont change until we quit buying poorly made recorders.

 

[Mark V]

Yes, it seems to me that the preamp in the recorder should be able to do the job. Unfortunately, I got it on e-Bay so I doubt a refund is in the cards.

Look, I'm trying to do this on the cheap, but I'm not looking to record anything but one solo acoustic, so it can't be that complicated, can it? I can't invest too much more, but I do want a rich, full sound. I'm willing to invest another $100 or so, but I don't want to keep adding gizmos for naught.

What do you think of the Presonus Bluetube 2 preamp? I see a couple of these on e-Bay for not too much $.

Mark

 

[Farview]

Are you sure are playing into the right side of the mic. You will sound far away playing into the back.

 

[Mark V]

**Goot one!**

 

[Herm]

I would vote for the M audio dmp3 also. But be careful about how high you turn the level up going into the fostex. It seems they have had a few problems with people blowing out the front end on some of their channels with outboard preamps.
I would also talk to some of the folks on the Fostex forum they may be able to help you out more.