What made Trump so bad?

[WWLaidback]

Because there are more eligible voters in California than the rest of the country? One person one vote. That's how it works in every other democracy.

How do you apportion for the segment of the population that was not eligible to vote, or chose for whatever reason not to vote?
In a state where almost nobody was old enough to vote -- would that state have no voice in an election?
and what about those that were discriminated against in voting?
The electoral college was created with good reasons.

Why Was the Electoral College Created? | HISTORY

The Founding Fathers had to compromise when it came to devising a system to elect the president.

www.history.com

 

[Mick Doobie]

Agree that most of the rioters were opportunistic punks, not necessarily making a political statement. Agree that some police brutality accusations are bullshit. However, some are also never heard about and victims just deal with it. As a leader, you sometimes have to deal with public perception regardless of facts. Doubling down on authoritarianism doesn’t help public perception. Treat the issue, and also treat the perception. Trump did neither.

Refresh my memory, what did he do. Not a challenge, an honest question.

 

[leddy]

Refresh my memory, what did he do. Not a challenge, an honest question.

Off the top of my head: tweeted when the looting starts the shooting starts, admonished governors for not sending national guard. Not acknowledging police brutality needed to be addressed. Clearing streets for the photo op with him holding the Bible. Would have to refresh my own memory as well.

 

[leddy]

Trump rails against protesters following unrest in Portland

Portland police are investigating the shooting death of a man in clashes between demonstrators at a pro-Trump vehicle rally and counterprotesters.

www.nbcnews.com

Oregon Officials Blast Trump Response To Portland Protests

Officials in Oregon are lashing out at President Trump for sending federal officers into Portland amid the ongoing protests against police brutality and racism.

www.npr.org

'What a disaster': Aggressive federal response in Portland raises legal questions

The events in Portland could present a legal test on how far the federal government can go in asserting its authority in cities where its presence is not desired.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Mick Doobie]

Trump rails against protesters following unrest in Portland

Portland police are investigating the shooting death of a man in clashes between demonstrators at a pro-Trump vehicle rally and counterprotesters.

www.nbcnews.com

Oregon Officials Blast Trump Response To Portland Protests

Officials in Oregon are lashing out at President Trump for sending federal officers into Portland amid the ongoing protests against police brutality and racism.

www.npr.org

'What a disaster': Aggressive federal response in Portland raises legal questions

The events in Portland could present a legal test on how far the federal government can go in asserting its authority in cities where its presence is not desired.

www.usatoday.com

Of those 2 articles I don't see much that would be particularly damning of Trump. I did find this interesting....

"said Michael Dorf, a constitutional law professor at Cornell University. "If the situation were such that you thought that the city of Portland was conspiring with people who are rioting and violating federal rights, then there might be authority for some federal action."

Yeah, Ted Wheeler, that's the mayor I was talking about earlier. There are videos of him among the protestors. In the one I referred to, he was among and addressing the rioters, I heard it with my own ears, "I am one of you", or "I am with you", as in the background there were rioters attempting to set a government building on fire. If memory serves it was a federal building, though ai could be mistaken.

Wheeler is the chief executive of that city. If he is among the protestors who are attempting to burn to the ground a federal building with possibly federal employees inside, and he is telling those rioters and arsonists, "I am one of you" or "I am with you", I don't see how that could be far away from "conspiring" with those rioters to burn a federal building. The federal govt has the right, nay, the duty to act.

Wheeler is a cunt. I don't know that it is possible any longer to find that video, if I tried. Im not rah rah police and federal involvement in localities. But there is a legit need for law enforcement in this country, and a federal building is federal property and jurisdiction.

Wheeler is a cunt, but I guess the people of Portland get what they deserve. Damn sure glad I don't live there.

 

[Krakit]

Hi, my name is Mick Doobie...at least that's what they call me around these parts, among other things.



There is a set number of elected representatives in the house. The set number is proportioned to each state based on population, with each state having a minimum of one, just to keep representation fair. Taxation without representation is not a good look. It might cause problems, such as our very own American Revolution against The Crown.

Each state is to have an equal number of senators. 50 states, 100 senators? Each state gets two. In a way it's kind of like the ol' one person(state), one vote, it keeps things fair.

The United States is a vast area. Some areas with a more concentrated populace, some areas less populated. California has a large population. If not for our what might be considered checks and balances, California with its large population might decide the water in a lesser populated neighboring state would be best utilized for the good of the people and to be sent to California, even against the will of those in the less populated state. Or California might want to really be serious about stopping manmade global climate change, heavily regulate energy producers, and have their energy needs shipped in from neighboring less populated states. It might make Californians feel really good about being really serious about fighting climate change, all the sacrifices they're making, but is it really a serious effort of neighboring less populated states have to do the dirty work and the environment in which they live suffers. Given that climate change is global, does it even actually address the problem, or would it merely give California with its large population undue power to determine how they live as opposed to their unfortunate less populated neighbors. I think gasoline now is around $5.16 per gallon in California, here where I live it is currently around $3.15. I would rather pay $3.15 rather than $5.16. ymmv. If you live in California, more power to you, there.


Let me know if you have any more questions, I will attempt to oblige.

You seem to think that the population of California dwarfs the rest of the country. It does not. There is no way that California could lead the country around by the nose the way less populated states are doing right now based on the two senators per state regardless of population system we have in place today.
The results of unequal representation and minority rule in the U.S. Senate ripple out and have many disturbing political effects. First, and probably most obviously, this kind of Senate often produces policies that disproportionately favor less populated states and their citizens. For example, many of the least populated states, like Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and West Virginia get much more back from federal programs than they pay in federal taxes. While many large states, like California, Illinois, New Jersey, and New York pay a lot more in federal taxes than they get back.

More importantly, because of its undemocratic nature, the Senate has become the graveyard of many policies supported by the majority of Americans. This questionable tradition goes back far into the previous century. The Senate blocked ratification of the League of Nations treaty after World War I, stalled anti-lynching and civil rights legislation after World War II, and killed the Clinton universal healthcare program in the 1990s. More recently in 2019, the Democratic House passed a whole raft of bills supported by most Americans on the issues of gun control, global warming, equal pay for equal work, controlling violence against women, rebuilding vital infrastructure, lowering prescription drug costs, preserving net neutrality, and voting and campaign finance reform. All were killed by a Republican Senate whose leader, Mitch McConnell, bragged that he wanted to be called “The Grim Reaper.” If you are wondering why the U.S. lags behind most of our peer democracies in all of these policies areas, the minority-controlled Senate provides much of the answer.

 

[Mick Doobie]

Okay, it's not the video of Wheeler. It's The Washington Post, is that okay?

I was wrong, it's been a while. Wheeler actually tells the rioters, “The reason I am here tonight is to stand with you no matter what." No matter if they are attempting to burn down a federal courthouse? Read the lunacy from the WP. After 50 days of riots, looting, burning, a block from a federal courthouse where "protestors are shooting fireworks". Fireworks, explosives. And you know what those dang feds did? They shot "fireworks" and teargas back, in fucking defense. Wheeler got himself a good whiff of it, which made him even more sympathetic to the rioters. He doesn't think teargas should be used to stop rioters, scuse, protestors from burning federal buildings.

I've ran out of my three free articles a month from the WP. But there are some doozy quotes in that article. No matter how the WP tries to spin it, it was an epic shitshow, with wheeler right in the middle of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/23/ted-wheeler-portland-tear-gas/

 

[Mick Doobie]

You seem to think that the population of California dwarfs the rest of the country. It does not. There is no way that California could lead the country around by the nose the way less populated states are doing right now based on the two senators per state regardless of population system we have in place today.
The results of unequal representation and minority rule in the U.S. Senate ripple out and have many disturbing political effects. First, and probably most obviously, this kind of Senate often produces policies that disproportionately favor less populated states and their citizens. For example, many of the least populated states, like Alaska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and West Virginia get much more back from federal programs than they pay in federal taxes. While many large states, like California, Illinois, New Jersey, and New York pay a lot more in federal taxes than they get back.

More importantly, because of its undemocratic nature, the Senate has become the graveyard of many policies supported by the majority of Americans. This questionable tradition goes back far into the previous century. The Senate blocked ratification of the League of Nations treaty after World War I, stalled anti-lynching and civil rights legislation after World War II, and killed the Clinton universal healthcare program in the 1990s. More recently in 2019, the Democratic House passed a whole raft of bills supported by most Americans on the issues of gun control, global warming, equal pay for equal work, controlling violence against women, rebuilding vital infrastructure, lowering prescription drug costs, preserving net neutrality, and voting and campaign finance reform. All were killed by a Republican Senate whose leader, Mitch McConnell, bragged that he wanted to be called “The Grim Reaper.” If you are wondering why the U.S. lags behind most of our peer democracies in all of these policies areas, the minority-controlled Senate provides much of the answer.

You miss the point. What you advocate would allow more populated states to dictate to less populated.

Somewhat unrelated, I feel you also fail to recognize that many or most times a bill has all sorts of other things thrown in totally unrelated to its supposed benefit. If it passes, wish list of unrelated fulfilled. If it doesn't, the opposition hates you and doesn't want you to have the benefit. It's a win/win.

Anyway, in a bit of a rush. Thanks for playing.

 

[leddy]

Wheeler actually tells the rioters, “The reason I am here tonight is to stand with you no matter what." No matter if they are attempting to burn down a federal courthouse?

I’m also going to agree with you that governors and prosecutors who basically let criminals run the town, not prosecuting shoplifters etc, is bullshit. What I’m saying is that there’s a right way and a wrong way to do it.

Compare “when the looting starts the shooting starts” with Obama’s words:

“Let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves,” he argued.

The former president concluded by stating that “justifiable anger” must be channeled into “peaceful, sustained, and effective action.”

“If, going forward, we can channel our justifiable anger into peaceful, sustained, and effective action, then this moment can be a real turning point in our nation’s long journey to live up to our highest ideals,” Obama said.

 

[WWLaidback]

d there were rioters attempting to set a government building on fire. If memory serves it was a federal building, though ai could be mistaken.

it was a federal court house and there were people inside the building at the time the rioters tried to set it on fire.

Who went to jail for the insurrection in the Wisconsin general assembly, back in 2011, when Scott Walker (republican) was governor?

Hundreds of demonstrators continue the round-the-clock occupation of the Wisconsin State Capitol building in defiance of orders to leave.

https://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/28/defying_walker_wisconsin_protesters_refuse_to

PS: they broke into the building and entered it illegally.

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

According to Trump's lawyers who arrived at the scene subsequent to the "raid" commencing, law enforcement conducting the raid were initially reluctant to provide a copy of the warrant. Contrary to "explicitly describe" what items they were looking for, probable cause was sealed. As the law professor in the opinion piece you posted said, perhaps the purpose of the raid was "whatever they ended up seizing would contain evidence of a crime." I'm no expert, but I don't think that is how it is supposed to work. Besides, sealing probable cause might lend credence to some crazy conspiracy theory that it was merely what they call a "fishing expedition", and law enforcement could later taylor probable cause to support "whatever they end up seizing". I would think that is why disclosure at the time of the raid is important, important to subjects of the raid, and certainly above the table law enforcement. Any citizen to include former presidents could righteously and accurately to classified as a victim if such things occured. If probable cause is not disclosed at the time of the raid, we will never know, will we?

You made the assumption that the search warrant "would explicitly describe what items they were looking for". Maybe the NY post wasn't reporting it, I don't know. But I provided information with which you are (were) unaware.Trump's lawyers said probable cause was sealed. Aren't you interested in truth, and facts? All you have to say about that is some sophomoric reference to witch hunts? That's how seriously you take it....law enforcement conducting a raid on someone's home?

You were wrong about this too.

How the fuck would you know if "The demeanor of the agent is irrelevant and provided only to imply they were up to something"? Were you there? No. And you're cool with the FBI and justice department under the guise of retrieving super secret frightening top secret information using the opportunity to fish for anything they could possibly find? That's not how that shit is supposed to work. But you're fine with it. Well, okay.

The White House, huh? That's who is behind the raid? Interesting to know. According to guests who were not on Rachel Maddow, when "The White House" was returned 15 boxes they were given full permission without a search warrant to look through any other boxes that were present. Guests who were not on Rachel Maddow have said Trump was very cooperative.. I would think if "The White House" discovered super sensitive top secret information that belonged to the govt they would or could have seized them at that time. But they didn't. Why? They chose to come back later, with a search warrant. Why would that be?

You don't know what was in those boxes, nor do I. I would think Trump knows. "The White House" would certainly know, because word is they looked. If they looked, and it was specific super dooper secret shit in there, it should most certainly be detailed in the probable cause. Probable cause was sealed, so we may never know, right? There's been a shitload of that kind of thing going on for too long.

Wrong.

In this case, this search warrant, it is being reported that Trump representatives such as his lawyer were flashed the search warrant, not given an opportunity to hold and read it, and not provided a copy which would be normal procedure. If these things are true, then the attitude of those serving the warrant is relevant as fuck.

You mention the WH because you don't know what the hell you are talking about. One, the archivists have no direct relation to the WH. Two, the WH claims no prior knowledge of the search warrant or it's being conducted. And three, how would I know "if Trump were cooperative"? Well fuck me, I guess maybe you got me on three. Let's see, grasping at straws, maybe an indication that Trump were cooperative was provided by....you.

You people are whacked.

Wrong

And if I recall correctly - somewhere you claimed that they're not likely to find anything. Wrong again.

"Trump's lawyers said" <---- good one.



You're shoot from the hip guy.

 

[Dave Matthews]

it was a federal court house and there were people inside the building at the time the rioters tried to set it on fire.

Who went to jail for the insurrection in the Wisconsin general assembly, back in 2011, when Scott Walker (republican) was governor?

Hundreds of demonstrators continue the round-the-clock occupation of the Wisconsin State Capitol building in defiance of orders to leave.

https://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/28/defying_walker_wisconsin_protesters_refuse_to

PS: they broke into the building and entered it illegally.

Protesters congregate at the "American Patriot Rally on Capitol Lawn" in Lansing Michigan

Protesters congregate at the "American Patriot Rally on Capitol Lawn" in Lansing Michigan

www.mlive.com

 

[WWLaidback]

Some people call republicans white supremacists fascists... but don't take it personal if yer a republican....
The same people are calling a man a woman too.
I'm glad it ain't me....

 

[Dave Matthews]

Some people call republicans white supremacists fascists... but don't take it personal if yer a republican....
The same people are calling a man a woman too.
I'm glad it ain't me....

Some people call democrats lefty antifa woke extremists but don't take it personal if yer a democrat....
The same people are denying women's rights, and looking to deny gay rights.
I'm glad it ain't me....

 

[Dave Matthews]

You cannot declassify SCI documents...

FBI seized top secret documents at Trump's home; Espionage Act cited

FBI agents in this week's search of former U.S. President Donald Trump's Florida home removed 11 sets of classified documents including some marked as top secret, the Justice Department said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

 

[RFR]

You cannot declassify SCI documents...

FBI seized top secret documents at Trump's home; Espionage Act cited

FBI agents in this week's search of former U.S. President Donald Trump's Florida home removed 11 sets of classified documents including some marked as top secret, the Justice Department said on Friday.

www.reuters.com

Hope you’re smart enough to see that this is all a massive publicity stunt psyop.

Both the left and the right benefit greatly, and we the people lose.

Divide and conquer, baby! We’re all at each other’s throats .

 

[Dave Matthews]

Hope you’re smart enough to see that this is all a massive publicity stunt psyop.

Both the left and the right benefit greatly, and we the people lose.

Divide and conquer, baby! We’re all at each other’s throats .

Hope you're smart enough to see that a citizen (Trump) is not allowed to have SCI or top secret documents.
This isn't the conspiracy you are stating it is.

 

[Dave Matthews]

So... The dickhead Trump exposes the names of two FBI agents and now they have to take extra precautions against idiots/assholes with guns.
This on top of the overall threat to all FBI agents because of idiotic political rhetoric/lies about planting evidence etc.
WTF is wrong with these people?

 

[RFR]

Hope you're smart enough to see that a citizen (Trump) is not allowed to have SCI or top secret documents.
This isn't the conspiracy you are stating it is.

Hope you’re smart enough to realize there’s a lot of shit show smoke and mirrors that goes on in Washington.,

 

[Dave Matthews]

Hope you’re smart enough to realize there’s a lot of shit show smoke and mirrors that goes on in Washington.,

Maybe, but I seriously doubt this is part of it.
He's pretty much admitted he had the documents and tried to compare the situation to a hoax about Obama.