warmer sounding tubes

[woolybooly]

Didn't know if this was the right spot to post this

I currently have GT Mullard re-issues in v1 and v2 of my JCM800 and a JJ Tesla in my v3. But the more I play the less I like this much gain (I'm using the MP-1 3TM which is a 3 tube High gain JJ ECC83S preamp and I've got 2 GT-6CA7 GE's in my outputs in the 800 connecting to a 1960A)


Can someone recommend a warmer tone sounding tube? Something with less harsh highs? I love gain but I don't want to sound like I'm playing in a tin can.

It has been suggested I try replacing the GE's with 6L6/6550's. But what brand is good?

I originally had Telefunken EL34's in there but wasn't very happy with that sound either. Anyone have any suggestions for a warmer sounding tube? I'd like to find something recommended by other's before I have my head re-biased again.

 

[Farview]

I used to like the 6550's in my jcm 800 (back in the 80's) Which version and what era is your head from? I am using JJ tesla el34 and el34L tube in the head I have now (not a Marshall) The el34s are 'warmer' than the el34Ls, mainly because they are squishier.
My instinct would be to just go with JJ teslas all the way around (12ax7's and EL34's) and see what that does. There is a lot of hype about NOS tubes and reissues of old styles but, frankly, some of them didn't sound all that great in a Marshall in the 70's. Just because they were made back then doesn't mean anyone would have used them at the time.
The unfortunate truth about the Marshalls is that none of them sound alike and there is a wide variation in sound out of these heads.

 

[woolybooly]

Mine is an '86 #2204. I used to have Telefunken EL34's in there but I want something with a fuller more rounded sound. Would you say the 6550's gave a fuller sound? What brand of 6550's do you recommend? I hear Zakk uses them but like you said, every rig and setup is different. Plus I have Jackson's with SD's not Les Paul's. Maybe I could try an eq but my rack is already getting to big to lug around everywhere.

 

[Farview]

SD? Seymore duncans or Super distortions?
What is in your rack? You can really screw up a good tone with rack gear. If you have a BBE (for example) you have just found your problem.

 

[woolybooly]

LOL! Here's the gear

MP-1 send loop to BBE in... out to Xpression in... receive loop MP-1
output A from MP-1 to lo in on JCM 800

I realize coloring the sound comes with any effect regardless of in or out. I've tried it out and it still sounds, well tinny. Do you think it would color so much as there would be a noticeable difference if say I totally bypassed the BBE altogether?

Do you think an eq would help in either pre or post effect position?

WB

 

[Farview]

Plug the guitar into the High input of the jcm800. Deck the preamp and tell me what you hear. Take all the other stuff out of the loop, just guitar > amp> cabinet. Set the tone controls on 7, all of them. Is it still harsh sounding?

 

[woolybooly]

I'll give it a go tonight after work and let you know. BTW, just saw you're from St. Charles. I grew up in Elgin (75-85) out in Catatoga II near Randal and Nolan Rds. Small world.

WB

 

[goldtopchas]

I've got a 76' jmp and I found a tip that solved the same situation that you're having. It had 6550's which I changed to el34's...then this tube and that.. but it was still too harsh in the high mid and treble range.
On the preamp Vol. pot, inside the chassis, there was a little bypass cap, which lets more highs through at lower knob settings. It has no effect when the preamp is turned up to 10. I just clipped one end of the cap and bent it out of the way. Fender bright switches work the same way. The lower the setting, the brighter the signal.
I play with my preamp at about 6 1/2 to 7 and use a clean boost for more drive. This mod. made a big difference for me. It lets the WHOLE signal through the amp instead of a brightness enhanced version.
Now obviously you have to check if it has this, and be able to remove the chassis without frying anything vital...such as transformers or fingers and such, but it might be worth a try..if it's too muddy just re- solder it.
Also I've found that using lower tone settings give better results for my rig....... ( 3to5) I have to concur with FARVIEW, going straight into a Marshall almost always yields better tone than using outboard gear.
Plus you mentioned in your set up that you go into the low input?? The tone takes a dive when I do that in mine.. The resistor it goes through lowers input, but robs all the harmonic richness from the signal before the amp has a chance to do anything with it.
Rock on!!!
Chas.

 

[EleKtriKaz]

Mine is an '86 #2204. I used to have Telefunken EL34's in there but I want something with a fuller more rounded sound. Would you say the 6550's gave a fuller sound? What brand of 6550's do you recommend? I hear Zakk uses them but like you said, every rig and setup is different. Plus I have Jackson's with SD's not Les Paul's. Maybe I could try an eq but my rack is already getting to big to lug around everywhere.

Billy Corgan used KT-88s in his JCM800s, which he said gave him a more "round" sound. That may be an option for you.

 

[spoonie g]

Mine is an '86 #2204. I used to have Telefunken EL34's in there but I want something with a fuller more rounded sound. Would you say the 6550's gave a fuller sound? What brand of 6550's do you recommend? I hear Zakk uses them but like you said, every rig and setup is different. Plus I have Jackson's with SD's not Les Paul's. Maybe I could try an eq but my rack is already getting to big to lug around everywhere.

well, you're probably going to have to sacrifice fuller for warmer one way or another, unless you're comparing EL34's to E34L's, which I think are plenty warm. And then you are talking about 6550's and KT88's, which do have more bass (for the fuller sound you are talking about), but also have more highs than EL34's.

How loud do you turn up the master volume? You may just be hearing all preamp buzz, which will exhibit some of the complaints you are giving. These amps need serious volume to get the power tubes cooking, and frankly, more than most clubs I've ever played in would allow.

Also, I would look at other aspects of your rig, because frankly, there isn't a hell of a lot you can do to change the voicing of an amp, barring doing serious mods. Marshalls are typically focused in the high mids, which means "harsh" in many situations.

Think about your guitar (which is?) and pickups, and another aspect that people all too often overlook: speakers. This is a key part of your chain of sound, and many people forget about that.

Just a few things to chew on.

 

[woolybooly]

Plus you mentioned in your set up that you go into the low input?? The tone takes a dive when I do that in mine.. The resistor it goes through lowers input, but robs all the harmonic richness from the signal before the amp has a chance to do anything with it.
Rock on!!!
Chas.

I get plenty of harmonic richness with my modded MP-1. I love the thing. Very George Lynch sounding rig.

I've got the preamp setting on the head down to 1 or 2 and my OD settings on my MP-1 are 7.0 and 6 (out of 10) Because I'm using this setup in my basement studio, I can only turn the master up to about 2 without pissing off the neighbors. I have found that it sounds fuller at higher volumes at rehersal, though but again not good for my house and location.

I'm going to ask my tech if the above mentioned mod can be done. I only have this beef when I'm recording at home. I also have a cab simulator that I could try to use specifically for recording purposes only.

I used to use the high input but still a bit too tinny. With the modded MP-1 it actually sounds better in the lo input. Plenty of gain and "balls" (see Lynch reference)

Does anyone have any other preference for heads in a similar price range besides Mesa?

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

 

[Farview]

If you atre using the MP-1 for your distortion, the head is almost unnecessary. What you need is a tube power amp. The Mesa 90/90 is great. No, it won't make you sound like you are playing through a dual rec.

The other problem you are having is your cabinet. If you don't have the volume up enough, the speakers don't break up and give you the low end that balances the harshness out.

Are you talking about Lynch's sound from Dokken or from his more recent stuff?

 

[woolybooly]

Early Lynch, Tooth and Nail album, Paris is Burning. I did find this link for a Marshall mod, http://www.tone-lizard.com/Ultimate_JCM800.htm.

Yeah it sounds great when turned up. Great sound during rehearsal and such. The problem is my neighbors when I want to record at home.

I might try this mod out first since it would be cheaper than buying another amp (Mesa 90/90, Peavey 60/60, etc.)

I'm gonna talk to my tech and see what he says about this mod.

WB

 

[Farview]

I think you are missing the point of all these mods. Those are designed to get the sound you want out of the amp. You are basicly bypassing all that and using the mp-1 to get the sound. In order for any of the things you are doing to the amp to do you any good, you need to use the amp for distortion and turn up the volume.
Different tubes sound about the same until you over drive them, so changing the power tubes won't do anything until you get into the volume.
Changing the gain structure of the amp won't do you any good when you are running the amp clean. You aren't useing the JCM 800 in a way to take advantage of any of the mods you propose.

 

[woolybooly]

hmm... so what other options/best case scenario can I take without losing my MP-1?

If I remove the MP-1, and use the 800 for distortion, am I still going to have the tinny issue at low volumes?

Would it be beneficial to bypass the preamp section on the 800 if I wanted to continue using my MP-1?


WB

 

[Farview]

You need a isolation cabinet. It is a box with a speaker and a mic in it that is enclosed so you can crank the amp up more before the neighbors start complaining.
The tinny sound is because you are not getting into the power tubes or the speakers at all. My guess is that you would get the same sound out of a transistor power amp. In guitar amps, the tubes only do what they are good at once you over drive them. For your home application, you might want to find a low wattage tube amp to record with. Even though, 10 watts is only 6 db quieter than 100 watts.

 

[Thurgood]

Hello all:

Just to chime in about the BBE. Lose it. Had one years ago, sounded great for clean gtr or acoustic/electric but when put in the signal path for a distorted sound it was awful. Hate to say it but a JCM 100 set on one is not gonna ever get the sound you describe set up the way it is. Maybe a Amp hot plate + greenback 12 in single closed back box. You could go one step further with an isolation cabinet with the 1-12 cab inside. This way you get attenuation allowing power tubes to work, speaker OD/breakup, and sonic isolation. I found the JJ pre tube (12ax7a) too hot for my marshall DSL 100 so I changed to the next lowest gain pre tube I think it is an ECC 81 (european designation) I forget exactly what spec. I will post once I look it up. Anyway the amp sounds much better with the lower gain tube and still gets adequate distortion. Your 800 does not have as much gain in the first place so this may be moot but pre-amp tubes are cheap.

 

[woolybooly]

I'm going to try removing the BBE and see what happens. I also got a hold of a HotPlate 16 so I'm gonna try that as well before maybe looking into an iso cab. Problem with the iso cab is I'm limited on space in the house. I already get bitched at for having too much gear from my woman

I think the HotPlate will allow me to turn up the volume on the head to the desired level and then adjust the HP-16 from there allowing the full effect of the tubes. Because like I said it sounds fine when it's turned up. Just not realisitic in a house and neighborhood.

We'll see what happens. I'll let you guys know the outcome next week.

WB

 

[woolybooly]

Ok, installed the hot plate and removed the BBE. The HP-16 made a world of difference. A much fuller well rounded sound. I'll give it a go with my MP-1 and see if that makes it sound even better.

IMHO, I'd recommend an attenuator if you can not turn your amp up where you live/practice.

WB

 

[gusfinley]

hmmm.......

I'm not too up on the JCM800 series, but if you are already using a pre-amp you can bypass your preamp section by sending the output of your preamp to the return on your effects loop. You may have to plug something into the send to cut off the signal from the JCM800 preamp.

I've been experimenting wiht this myself and have found that running a TS9-DX tubescreamer into the FX return of the parallel effecets loop of my DSL401 gives me a unique tone. Full of Bass and warmth, and having the growl and midrange of the stock preamp- it is sounding great.