USB 3 will it make my USB 2 units work better?

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CoolCat

CoolCat

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i saw my first USB 3 card today, $50 Radio Shak...

i wonder if it will improve the USB 2 devices i already have, 24/96 is my current max.
i was looking for a separate USB 2...but thought maybe a USB 3 wll be a better choice?

any inputs appreciated...
 
no, it wont make 2's go faster.
you need to buy a usb3 device to take advantage of the speed bump.
 
And if it's as dodgy as the USB3 card I put in one machine and returned to the store the next day, it'll keep your machine from POSTing....

:D
 
thanks for the inputs...

USB is backward compatible, meaning that a USB 3.0 device also supports USB 2.0 speeds, just like USB 2.0 supports the 12 Mb/s link speed of USB 1.1. All you need are suitable cables. The type A USB 3.0 connector is mechanically similar to the USB 2.0 plug, but it comes with additional wires for USB 3.0 link speeds. If these aren’t available on both the plug and the port, the USB link will automatically run at USB 2.0’s 480 Mb/s speedhttp://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/usb-3.0-superspeed-external-drive,2670-2.html

good little article on it. i must ahve missed the initial releases, it seems usb was out around 2008? dont see much audio recording USB 3 interfaces...?
 
2 reasons:

a) you can already get 16 simultaneous ins/outs with usb2
(if you need more firewire does over 100)

b) usb3 just came out and it takes a year to 18months for manufacturers to design and build stuff for new ports. (Thunderbolt is in the same 'we gotta wait a year or two' situation.)

When there are already solutions that work (usb2/firewire) there is no huge rush for companies to spend R&D money just to fill a new plug....
 
ok ..now I feel like I havent missed the USB 3 startup...its a work in progress.

interesting the USB does 16 and Firewire 100..??

I have never used Firewire except for downloading video from a camcorder.

When I tried the Saffire Pro40 ($$$$) it never worked worth a crap, and yet when I load up a USB 2 (Tascam 1641) it was so flawless it shocked me. Previously I had played with PCI EMU 1820, and it was a nightmare to setup, a nightmare to change anything, and a pain in the A$$ to move to another computer.....

so USB seems to get dogged a lot, when my experience is very good with it.
Its easy to change computers obviously, much easier than PCI....

USB 2 seems to come in 24/192 flavors, 24/48....16/44..24/96


So what will be the big deal for USB 3? more inputs probably?

Will audio be better on USB 3?

What do you guess the interfaces will be marketed as?

Is it going to surpass FireWire? or will FireWire 3 come out?

Tim....would it benefit me to get a separate USB 2 card for my Tascam 1641, or would a USB 3 card work and offer the best of USB 2 & USB 3 future ability?
 
Will audio be better on USB 3?

What do you guess the interfaces will be marketed as?

USB 3 itself will have no impact on the quality of the sound it's simply a communication protocol. With faster potential sustained though-put speeds what we'll most likely see is USB interfaces with similar input/output options that we see in FW devices today

Quality of the sound of an interface comes from the quality/headroom of the preamps and AD/DA converters (assuming the source material is also of good quality), not the protocol that is used to transmits ones and zero's to and from the computer

It's like asking: "I've written a thriller novel, will it be more exciting if I print it out and mail to the publisher or if I send it as an email attachment?". of course it will be the same novel you just used a different communication protocol to get it to it's final destination
 
So what will be the big deal for USB 3? more inputs probably?
Most likely.

Will audio be better on USB 3?
A few semi-informed thoughts, aimed at being improved upon by those more informed:

As already mentioned, USB (and Firewire, and any similar connection) is just a means of transmitting digital data. So long as the connection works as it's supposed to, the data received will match the data sent, and it will have absolutely zero effect on the audio that's being described by that data.

The various connections do, of course, differ to the extent that:
(a) they don't work the way they're supposed to, so that the data received doesn't match the data sent; and
(b) the compromises that have to be made in order to ensure that (a) doesn't occur.
These are obvioiusly two sides of the same coin. To put it in practical music-recording terms: the first ordinarily appears as pops and dropouts. The second takes the form of the increased latency and limitations on track-count, sample rate, bit rate, etc. that you put up with to avoid pops and dropouts.

At the risk of stating the obvious: Music recording differs from more typical data transfers (like, say, moving data among disks and ordinary office applications, like word processors and spreadsheets) in that it has to happen in real time, and in a "real time" that's pretty demanding to current ordinary consumer technology. In typical data transfers, the software can recognize a bad bit of data with standard error-checking measures, and go back and try it again until the data is retransmitted without an error. When you're using a word processor and it's loading a file from an external hard drive, you don't even notice when - say - a particular characteX is mis-transmitted: even if the computer has to go back and tryi it 100 times until it comes out right, the delay is too slight to notice. If it has to go back and transmit every fifth character 100 times, the only effect will be that the file will load more slowly than it otherwise would have ... but it'll load quickly enough that you probably won't care much. When you're transmitting music - even just an ordinary CD - you must send the equivalent of 176,400 word-processing characters every second.* If you fall behind even once the audio signal won't be transmitted in time to play perfectly. Software has enough error-tolerance to deal with dropping a single sample, but once you miss more than a few, dropouts and pops necessarily result. So speed and accuracy (two sides of the same coin, since error-correction trades speed to get accuracy) matter for music much, much more than for typical computer tasks.

Another element to throw in is the extent to which a particular data-transfer method uses other computer resources that your music software also wants to use: CPU processing, for example. The key criticism of USB 2 for audio (at least relative to Firewire) is the extent to which it burdens the CPU. USB 3 is still somewhat mysterious, but it looks like the engineers' primary purpose was to make things like hard-drive backups faster, so that they didn't really address CPU use. This tends to suggest that USB 3 - though it has a considerably higher maximum data-transfer rate than Firewire - may still be inferior to Firewire for audio applications.

As for Firewire, my impression is that its primary champion was Apple, and that Apple seems to have lost interest in it. Which suggests the likelihood of an improved version of Firewire is low.
______________
*A more demanding example: say you're trying to transmit just 4 mono (or two stereo) tracks simultaneously in a 24/96 format. You need to send the equivalent of 1,152,000 word-processing characters per second. That's about 3 novels every second.
 
So the USB 3 will be marketed as better then USB 2....but you seem to say Firewire is still better for audio HR setups, is my understanding.

Firewire and USB 3....

I have USB 2, would it benefit me to get a dedicated Audio Interface USB 2 card (PCIe type)???
 
I also wonder if returning the mouse and keyboard to the old PS2 jacs will improve USB setup (leaving only the USB Audio interface on the USB )??

reading around, seems Apple is patenting things to adapt to USB 3, while publically stating they're not going to use USB 3 and rather go with INtels Optical system coming out...
 
interesting piece

The USB 3.0 (SuperSpeed USB) standard became official on Nov. 17, 2008 [source: Everything USB]. USB 3.0 boasts speeds 10 times faster than USB 2.0 at 4.8 gigabits per second. It's meant for applications such as transferring high-definition video footage or backing up an entire hard drive to an external drive. As hard drive capacity grows, the need for a high-speed data transfer method also increases.

Adoption of the USB 3.0 standard has been slow. Chip manufacturers must design motherboard hardware that supports USB 3.0. Computer owners have the option to purchase cards that they can install in their computers to give USB 3.0 support. But hardware support is just part of the problem -- you also need support from your operating system. Even though Microsoft announced that Windows 7 would eventually support the USB 3.0 standard, the company shipped its operating system without USB 3.0 support. Recent distributions of the Linux operating system support USB 3.0.

You might not think data transfer cables create controversy. But some reporters, such as ZDNet writer Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, suggests that one reason USB 3.0 adoption has been slow is because Intel has delayed production on motherboards with USB 3.0 support purposefully to give one of its own products a head start [source: Kingsley-Hughes]. That product is Light Peak, a data transfer technology that has an initial top data transfer speed of 10 gigabits per second with future theoretical speeds reaching 100 gigabits per second. Since Intel is a major manufacturer of chips, only a few computers with motherboards made by other companies currently support USB 3.0.

Intel representatives deny such claims. Company executives have said that the Light Peak technology isn't going to replace USB ports and that both Light Peak and USB 3.0 will work together. In the meantime, you can find computers and accessories that incorporate USB 3.0 on the market today.
 
When I tried the Saffire Pro40 ($$$$) it never worked worth a crap, and yet when I load up a USB 2 (Tascam 1641) it was so flawless it shocked me.

That's because the Pro40 uses the DICE chipset. The drivers for that chipset never were all that great. It's a shame to see it becoming so popular; it really has brought down people's opinions of FireWire audio reliability in its craptasticness.


so USB seems to get dogged a lot, when my experience is very good with it.

It gets dogged a lot because for every one USB interface with good drivers, that conforms correctly to the audio class spec, etc., there are a hundred others with awful drivers, that violate the USB audio class spec, etc. With FireWire, there are fewer folks actually designing the hardware, so it's easier to identify which FireWire audio chipsets suck. :)


So what will be the big deal for USB 3? more inputs probably?

USB 3 is basically going to be stillborn. Intel's Thunderbold shows a lot more potential, IMO, and doesn't suffer from all the legacy USB baggage and poor overall design. I'd expect the high end to go that direction in the very near future, and I'd expect it to trickle down to consumer-class gear over a few years. Among other things, it makes clock synchronization between multiple devices a lot easier and more precise, IIRC, and it neatly encapsulates PCIe over a removable connection, which should mean lower latency.


Will audio be better on USB 3?

No. As far as I can tell, there's exactly zero advantage to USB 3 over USB 2 except raw throughput, which means that nobody is likely to adopt it except hard drive vendors (and maybe Gigabit ethernet adapters).


Is it going to surpass FireWire? or will FireWire 3 come out?

FireWire 3200 will probably never come out in products at this point. Much like USB 3, there's no real advantage for anything but hard drives, and eSATA and Thunderbolt both make such uses largely uninteresting.
 
These are obvioiusly two sides of the same coin. To put it in practical music-recording terms: the first ordinarily appears as pops and dropouts. The second takes the form of the increased latency and limitations on track-count, sample rate, bit rate, etc. that you put up with to avoid pops and dropouts.

Pretty much. However, pops and crackles are invariably caused by either A. using a standard USB audio class driver with a non-class-compliant interface, or B. the computer not servicing interrupts quickly enough. It's not really fair to blame the bus for the second one. It's usually the fault of a badly written driver for some other device that shares an interrupt, coupled with the fundamental folly of sharing interrupts between devices in the first place....


As for Firewire, my impression is that its primary champion was Apple, and that Apple seems to have lost interest in it. Which suggests the likelihood of an improved version of Firewire is low.

The FireWire 3200 spec was finalized a couple of years ago, IIRC, but to date, nobody has built any gear. There's just no advantage to making it faster, given that eSATA supports hard drives more efficiently, and nothing else needs that much bandwidth. Same reason that USB 3.0 isn't that interesting.
 
I have USB 2, would it benefit me to get a dedicated Audio Interface USB 2 card (PCIe type)???

Depends on how badly your motherboard interrupt routing is screwed up (i.e. whether your USB ports share an interrupt with a graphics card, Wi-Fi transceiver, etc.).
 
coolcat, I think you keep confusing data transfer with audio quality.

usb, firewire, thunderbolt, etc. are just DATA PIPES.

Like a water hose, stuff goes through and the bigger the pipe is the more stuff you can shove through it.
The bits and bytes are not changed in any way.
The pipe for usb is a small garden hose and firewire is a big honking fire hose.
Thunderbolt, lightpipe and the others are just different-sized hoses.
Numbers are just moving from one box to another....
 
yes I do get it mixed up on these software communication and terminologys....

and just noticed the Saffire comment,...I want to add its a fine unit, more than I wanted in options and abilities and I have no clue what chipsets and all this is. It wasnt the Saffire units fault I couldnt get it working smoothly...

but appreciate the inputs.

its making more sense already actually.
 
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