The EQ for pianos and guitars

[GuitarsFromMars]

I regularly find the pianos fighting,with guitars midrange,for space, on the recordings I am doing.Is there a method or recipe,for the eq of the piano or the guitar eq (electric and acoustic)...to be able to have them sound reasonably smooth and musical?Help,please...I am using Cubase 4,so I have the eq sections...

 

[Massive Master]

The method is to EQ them how they need to be EQ'd. There are no presets, there are no starting points.

"Hmmm - The piano seems to be a little heavy around 400Hz and it's fighting with the guitars - I suppose I should cut a little 400Hz on one of them..."

That's your starting point if there's a buildup at 400Hz. Which one you cut is p to your ears and the rest of the mix. The piano might sound perfectly fine with a little less 400. The guitar might disappear. But the guitar might suit the mix better with less 400 than the piano.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

+1 Everything massive said. I'd also add...

Listen to the two parts and decide which one you think would sound better in the mix having a lower-sounding overall timbre than the other. If, for example, you think the guitar would sound better lower than the piano, you might want to gently scoop (only a couple of dB) some of the upper mids on the guitar while doing the same to the upper bass/lower mids of the piano.

Also look at the arrangement. You might want to drop/raise one or the other an octave if they are playing in the same register, and/or massage the arrangement a bit with your track volume automation so that they are not being emphasized at the same time; e.g. keep the git slightly louder when it's most important, but ride the faders to emphasize the piano during it's little fill trills that sound so neat. Not everybody needs to be playing full-bore 100% of the time; often less is more.

Finally, separate them in pan space, if possible.

G.

 

[RAMI]

Also look at the arrangement. You might want to drop/raise one or the other an octave if they are playing in the same register,

I'd say this is the usually the biggest source of the problem of the 2 fighting each other.

Once again, it comes from the source in, a sense. People write a guitar part, then write a keyboard part (or vice versa), both parts make sense on their own, but clash together. So, instead of looking at the arrangement, one tries to find that "magical fix-it-in-the-mix" solution.

I think 99% of the time, EQ, panning, doubling, standing on your head while reciting the Book of Ra, or any other of these things isn't the solution in a case like this. Arrangement is.

 

[Waffleness]

Agreed with whats been said. Would definately play with the pan.

One thing to try is delaying them. Double your tracks - so you've got 2 piano tracks playing the same thing and 2 guitar doing the same thing (I mean carbon copies, not different takes). Pan each hard left and right. It shouldn't sound any different to normal.
Now delay 1 of each instrument by, say, 30ms, but on opposite sides of the mix - for example:

Track 1: Piano Paned hard Left, 30ms Delay
Track 2: Piano Paned hard Right
Track 3: Guitar Paned hard Left
Track 4: Guitar Paned hard Right, 30ms Delay

This will give the effect of each instrument being seperated in the mix on each side of the sound stage, but not in the same way as being panned. Try playing with the delay time. Take it right down low (0.5ms) all the way up to high settings (100ms) and see what it sounds like.

Try it out, if it sucks then just ignore me . I like the way it sound in my mixes, but its personal preference.

 

[LemonTree]

Agreed with whats been said. Would definately play with the pan.

One thing to try is delaying them. Double your tracks - so you've got 2 piano tracks playing the same thing and 2 guitar doing the same thing (I mean carbon copies, not different takes). Pan each hard left and right. It shouldn't sound any different to normal.
Now delay 1 of each instrument by, say, 30ms, but on opposite sides of the mix - for example:

Track 1: Piano Paned hard Left, 30ms Delay
Track 2: Piano Paned hard Right
Track 3: Guitar Paned hard Left
Track 4: Guitar Paned hard Right, 30ms Delay

This will give the effect of each instrument being seperated in the mix on each side of the sound stage, but not in the same way as being panned. Try playing with the delay time. Take it right down low (0.5ms) all the way up to high settings (100ms) and see what it sounds like.

Try it out, if it sucks then just ignore me . I like the way it sound in my mixes, but its personal preference.

Carbon copies are gonna flange against each other cause by delaying them you're phucking with the fase. Also I don't think I'd ever have a piano hard panned any time in a mix unless it was a stereo recording, even then...I doubt it.

 

[MCI2424]

+1 Everything massive said. I'd also add...

Listen to the two parts and decide which one you think would sound better in the mix having a lower-sounding overall timbre than the other. If, for example, you think the guitar would sound better lower than the piano, you might want to gently scoop (only a couple of dB) some of the upper mids on the guitar while doing the same to the upper bass/lower mids of the piano.

Also look at the arrangement. You might want to drop/raise one or the other an octave if they are playing in the same register, and/or massage the arrangement a bit with your track volume automation so that they are not being emphasized at the same time; e.g. keep the git slightly louder when it's most important, but ride the faders to emphasize the piano during it's little fill trills that sound so neat. Not everybody needs to be playing full-bore 100% of the time; often less is more.

Finally, separate them in pan space, if possible.

G.

I would love to add something to this, but alas, I can't. Pretty much covers it. People new to recording have the propensity to pile everything around the midrange and add instruments that should be taken out all the time.

 

[Massive Master]

Gotta jump on the delay thing also... Delay on a couple individual guitar tracks (which is undoubtedly going to have fluctuating delays inherent to the performance anyway) is one thing -- Delaying a piano (or a stereo recording of any single source) is going to exaggerate its width - Not just "make it sound spacious" - That's done with spacing the microphones. If you were to delay a piano mic by 30ms, you'd wind up with a recording of a piano that sounded as if it were 25-some-odd feet wide.

Not that it (delay) doesn't come in handy here and there - Heck, I probably have a 12-15ms delay on overheads more often than not to give it a wider and "more live" feel. But the relationship to distance is around the same - It just has a "mic'd from outside the drummers reach" feel to it. But a piano like that... That'll just sound freaky...

 

[GuitarsFromMars]

Thanks for this bit of insight...