tell me how to fix this mix

  • Thread starter Thread starter stupidfatnugly
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Yes, we're absolutely serious. I don't quite follow what you mean by a "straight line". I'm not suggesting that you limit or compress everything to maintain exactly -18dbFS all the way through. I'm suggesting that this is the target for input metering.

I'm going to point you to an article on SouthSIDE Glen's page. He explains it far better and more clearly than I am able...

Metering and Gain Structure
 
Yes. Set your input so that you're hitting -18dbFS. That gives you plenty of room before you're in danger of clipping or distorting.

The -18dBFS thing is a semi-standard for calibrating VU meters to peak meters. To keep this really simple and leave out the complexities of metering standards, different rise/fall times, digital/analogue meters and what not, peak meters show you the peak voltage/level of a signal instantaneously - as it happens at that very moment, and VU meters, on the other hand, show you the average level of a signal over a period of time (still a fraction of a second though). Because of this, transients can slip through VU meters almost undetected whilst simultaneously going over 0dB on a peak meter - hence the need to calibrate. As an example, if you were to feed a continuous sin wave to the two meters and they are both at -3dB, then add a cowbell into the mix at a decent level, you'll barely move the VU meters, but will probably go over 0dB on the peak meters.

Now, say we were mixing on an analogue desk (with VU meters) into a DAT machine... in order to make the VU meters useful for metering and to help maintain correct gain/levels through the board we have to account for the transients which won't show on the VU meters, but will overload the DAT. So what we do, before we begin to mix, is feed a sin wave into a channel, send it to the master (which is sending to the DAT) so it's hitting obD on the master channel VU meters, then calibrate the levels on the peak meters so that the same sin wave coming from the console is sitting at -18dB (or whatever other level you may end up using, which can vary for many reasons) on the peak meters to allow headroom for the transients that will slip through the VU meters whilst otherwise overloading the DAT.

-- stupidfatnugly,

This doesn't apply to you, but may clarify why I'm going to contradict the advice that has been given to you thus far, and may explain why I believe it is a little confused.

In your case, as long as you stay under 0dB you won't be distorting the analogue to digital conversion stage... this depends on what you are using to meter, and how accurate and/or fast it is, so a few dB of headroom won't hurt you. You are quite correct with being a little shocked by the -18dB advice. Leaving headroom is good, especially when going to digital, but enough headroom that you can have a rock band turn up and play while you're recording a vocal is not good. I'll listen to the mix tomorrow.

For now, just stay under 0dB and then you can almost be sure that the problem is not overloading your interface.
 
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In your case, as long as you stay under 0dB you won't be distorting the analogue to digital conversion stage... this depends on what you are using to meter, and how accurate and/or fast it is, so a few dB of headroom won't hurt you. You are quite correct with being a little shocked by the -18dB advice. Leaving headroom is good, especially when going to digital, but enough headroom that you can have a rock band turn up and play while you're recording a vocal is not good. I'll listen to the mix tomorrow.

For now, just stay under 0dB and then you can almost be sure that the problem is not overloading your interface.
Here is the problem with that advice: While it is true that you won't overload the converters, you will still have to run the preamps feeding the converters well over the level they were designed to run at. Also, you will invariably end up turning everything down when you start mixing, otherwise you will overload the mix buss.

Peak levels are pretty useless when setting gain structure. The peaks don't matter as long as they are under 0dbfs. The average level is what matters.

Now, for instruments with a large peak to average ratio, like drums, having peaks up towards 0dbfs is perfectly fine. For instruments with low peak to average ratios, like sine waves, violins, etc... you would need to run your preamps at +15dbVU in order to get the level just shy of 0dbfs.
15db over line level! Does that really sound like a good idea?

Add to that the fact that most people on this board are using cheap or bang-for-the-buck preamps and outboard and you have a recipie for thin, scratchy, and generally terrible audio.

This is why there are so many of us running around trying to educate people about proper gain staging and trying to stop the assult of the outdated 'track as hot as you can without clipping' advice.
 
Kinetic,

after first glance of that article, I'm thinking that in protools I must have a VU meter for my faders.

I must be thinking -18 db on the VU meter which I think you would agree is crazy low.

do I even have a bdFS meter anywhere in protools 7.3 or wavelab?
 
Kinetic,

after first glance of that article, I'm thinking that in protools I must have a VU meter for my faders.

I must be thinking -18 db on the VU meter which I think you would agree is crazy low.

do I even have a bdFS meter anywhere in protools 7.3 or wavelab?
Any standard peak level meter on the digital side of the analog/digital conversion is a dBFS meter (unless it's a special plug-in specifically meant to mimic the action of an analog VU meter.) If it's a digital meter that ends in 0 at the very top, it's a dBFS meter.

There are two things to remember about VU meters on the analog side. One is that they are slow-responding - that is that they tend to show more-or-less average levels and that many of the transient, fast-acting peaks never register on your typical VU meter. Two is that they are calibrated so that 0VU equals the line level voltage that the inputs and outputs are designed to accept and deliver - and that the internal circuitry is designed to operate "best" at ("best" is in quotes because this ignores those exceptions where you purposely may want to introduce some analog distortion effects.)

So, taken together, this means that if one has their VU meter on the analog side so that the needle (or LED) seems to be averaging somewhere around 0VU (sometimes a bit higher, sometimes a bit lower), that one is running their signal at about that level at which their equipment was designed to be run. Which is usually a good thing.

The next thing to consider is the conversion calibration for the A/D converter - i.e. what dBFS level the converter is designed to convert 0VU analog into on the digital side. The unfair and unfortunate truth is there is no standard for this. While much gear is designed to operate at 0VU = -18dBFS, this is only an "average" amongst gear. It can range anywhere from -14 on some older European models to -15 on DATs and ADATs on the low end, to -20 to -22 dBFS on some late model Japanese and American DAWs and digital mixers.

If one *really* wants to understand their system's gain structure and get their system's metering and operation calibrated correctly, they should find out this conversion factor and calibrate their metering accordingly. there are instructions for this in the online app that Kinetic linked to.

Once calibrated, then one can know what they are really looking at and set their level accordingly (setting them on the analog preamp side of the converter, not in the DAW software.)

Just keeping peaks below 0dBFS,while it can get you by, is only part of the story and is not really following optimum gain structure. Just for example, if one actually has a conversion factor of 0VU = -22dBFS (which is more and more common every day), and their actual signal only has a crest factor of 10dB (the distance between average and peak level), then pushing that signal to ride just below 0dBFS actually means adding 12dB of gain to the preamps on the ADC, which can potentially push one into unwanted distortions.

And if you boost it 12dB on the digital side instead of the analog side, all you're doing is raising the converted analog noise floor and decreasing digital headroom by 12dB. Besides, when you start summing tracks together, you'll just have to turn it back down anyway.

In summary, in a perfect world everybody would stop just looking for the shortcut answers, whether it be the "below 0 peak" answer or the "-18dBFS average" answer, because while both of them are somewhat serviceable, neither of them is quite accurate or optimal. Find out what your own signal chain actually is and how your own conversion factor is calibrated, and you'll be cooking with gas. And give that answer to every one else, instead of perpetuating the "easy, but not quite right" answers, and before you know it, it will be second nature for everyone.

Unfortunately it's not a perfect world, it's a world where evryone is lazy and wants to take shortcuts - even if the long way is really only 5 minutes longer - and everyone winds up having to repeat these same debates and threads over and over and over and over and...

:)

G.
 
sorry but almost none of that made any sense to me.

(I'm too stupid) can you say that in down-syndrome language?

what meter does protools have? that's what I got
 
The standard meters in protools are dbFS.

Here is how you can tell. The dbFS scale ends at 0db. The dbVU scale has both negative and positive numbers and 0dbVU is somewhere in the middle of the meter.

Also, if it's digital, it's dbFS.
 
it looks as though I am going to have to do a lot of research on this subject.

would it be safe to say that, for now I should just concentrate on lowering my amplitude on my sound waves?

I need to keep working/recording and I don't know about these meters yet but I do understand a little trigonometry.

and one thing I can do for now is decrease my amplitude.

sound good? b/c obviously I am recording too hot, right?
 
it looks as though I am going to have to do a lot of research on this subject.

would it be safe to say that, for now I should just concentrate on lowering my amplitude on my sound waves?

I need to keep working/recording and I don't know about these meters yet but I do understand a little trigonometry.

and one thing I can do for now is decrease my amplitude.

sound good? b/c obviously I am recording too hot, right?
What don't you know about the meters? Protools meters are dbFS.
Just set the recording levels so that they hover about half way up the scale.
 
half way is -18bdfs?

I can do that. I was thinking -18dbfs was more like a third of the way

half way seams reasonable

I don't know if I want to get in to the rocket science of all this. I'll just go half way then.

thanks again farview
 
hey farview,

I noticed this other post by coolsoundman with his mix window: https://homerecording.com/bbs/attachment.php?attachmentid=52723&d=1224865769https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=272274

what about his levels? they are above -18, looks as high as -10dbfs
this means there's a bit of leeway(obviously). what is this range I should shoot for?

]
Without getting into the rocket science of it, you just want the average level to be around -18dbfs. If you peak above or below, it isn't a big deal.


[rocket science]The meters in protools read peak levels. Peak levels are almost useless. The average level is what is important.

The average level of a drum is very low in comparison to the peak level.

The average level of distorted guitars, violins, sine waves, etc... is very close to the peak level.

So, you can see how confusing using a peak meter to set your levels can be.[/rocket science]

So, the easiest way to do this is to set the level of a sustained note to -18dbfs (half way up) and just make sure the peaks don't get much over -6dbfs.

If you are recording something percussive like a drum that really doesn't have any sustain, set it so the peaks are around -6dbfs.
 
So, the easiest way to do this is to set the level of a sustained note to -18dbfs (half way up) and just make sure the peaks don't get much over -6dbfs.

so if I have a sequenced piano part on my keyboard, I should press play on the keyboard and set it to half way and also I can strike a keyboard note as hard as I can and adjust levels so that that strike is at -6dbfs?

is one of these methods better than the other for setting levels: strike a key to get the absolute peak or try to make the whole sequence's average be at -18dbfs?

I hope this makes sense

so that sustained note your talking about... it all depends on how hard I strike the note
 
The sustain should be around -18dbfs as long as the attack of the note doesn't go much above -6dbfs.

The problem with setting levels according to peaks is that a piano part with a peak of -6dbfs will be much quieter than a synth lead part that peaks at -6dbfs. This is because the lead sound doesn't have a large attack.

All of your equipment on the analog side of your chain was made to run at an average signal level at line level (0dbVU), which (depending on the converter calibration) will equal somewhere around -18dbfs on the digital side.

So, set the level of the sustain about half way up the meter. Then make sure the peak isn't too much above -6dbfs. If it clips or gets to close to clipping, back the gain down until it doesn't.

That's all you have to do.
 
blurhg... this reply's just gone over the top

I think there's a lot of confusion and mis-understanding about gain structure here. Some of what is being said is true, however that which is true is not applicable here or for - may I guess - at least 80% of the members of this forum. I think it is safe to assume that most people on this forum are using the typical studio-in-a-box solution of a standard computer audio interface that basically contains everything from the mic preamps and/or line/instrument inputs, through to the converters and the computer interfacing part. Most of them won't be patching into insert points, aux sending, or anything. Most of the people here are probably doing exactly what stupidfatandugly said he was doing - plugging straight into the interface and recording. I will come back to the studio-in-a-box thing later.

For now, I don't even know where to start replying to this without taking it back to an absolute beginers guide titled something like "OMG, WTF iS g@yN sTrUkShEr 'n' WTF dUs W33 n33d 2 w0rR33 @B0uT iT 4?! LOLZZZ!!!111!1!!!!11!!1!" Maybe I might just do that... here we go.

OMG, WTF iS g@yN sTrUkShEr 'n' WTF dUs W33 n33d 2 w0rR33 @B0uT iT 4?! LOLZZZ!!!111!1!!!!11!!1!

There are two key elements to understanding why we worry about gain structure. 1) Every piece of equipment has a finite amount of headroom available, and; 2) Every piece of equipment creates a certain amount of self noise.

1) Headroom
To understand what headroom is, first try and understand that every component in your signal chain has the potential to overload. That is to say that, if we feed it a signal that is of a greater level than what it can handle it will give up and chop off everything that is higher than the level it can handle. When this happens, we get distortion.

The next thing to understand is that every component has an intended operating level - a level at which it was designed to operate at. The reasons for, and the ways in which we measure, the intended operating level are varied, not the least of which is that it allows us to easily use several pieces of equipment in a convenient manner where we know that if we have a signal leaving the 'abc' box at such and such a level, we can then plug that into the 'xyz' box without too much trouble. We know that our +4dBU rated equipment is designed to receive and send levels at a nominal - for now, think average - level of 1.23V/+4dBU, which means we're not going to overload/starve the next component in our chain of +4dBU items by keeping the levels going in and out of our equipment in this range. The reasons we need standards like this is because of the vast differences between equipment needs/potential. Internally, a vacuum tube preamp can have signals in it running far above the overload point on a good console, and we may wish to plug this vacuum tube preamp into an AD converter. The converter alone will only need a signal that measures a fraction of what a signal coming straight from the anode of a vacuum tube could be. Because we're attempting to interface eqipment that can run signals into tens of volts with equipment that can only receive a fraction of this, the inputs and outputs of all our equipment are buffered in such a way that the signal leaving one piece of equipment will be suitable for the next piece of equipment that will be receiving it. The input and output buffers will take care of this (as well as impedance, but that's a whole other story).

Understanding that we have both a recommended and maximum level in each piece of equipment, it should now be easy to understand that headroom refers to how far above our operating level we can go without reaching the overload point. We need this headroom to account for transients/peaks, what the equipment is doing (say it's an eq where someone may potentially boost the voltage in a certain frequency range up to, say, 15dB), and any other imperfect variations such as a slightly hotter than ideal signal coming from the previous stage. Headroom is our friend in achieving clean audio.

2) Noise
Anyone who's ever turned on their home stereo at a reasonable level will probably have noticed that it creates a hissing noise that you can hear when there's quiet passages of music, or no music being played at all (or all the time if it's really bad). This is an example of self noise. What they'll also notice is that the self noise stays at a constant level no matter what the sound that is or isn't playing is doing. Apart from being distracting and annoying, this noise also has the potential to swallow up and smother the details of signals which fall too close to that of the noise being created by the equipment. Because the self noise of equipment is a constant, in order to reduce the ratio of noise that is combined with the signal, it makes sense to run the signal at a significantly higher level than the noise. To achieve that, we want the signal leaving one piece of equipment to be at such a level that we're not having to add gain to it (if possible) at the next stage to bring it up to a suitable level. The quieter the signal is, the closer it will be to the noise floor, so the more noise we will hear, and vice versa. When we add gain, we are turning up the signal. If that signal has picked up noise from anything previous in the signal chain, that noise will also be turned up. The ratio will not change once that noise is there.

So why are these two considerations so important to gain structure? Well, the very essence of good gain structure lies in running our signals at levels which still allow us headroom, whilst simultaneously getting as far above the self generated noise of our equipment as possible. Run your signals too hot and you'll run into distortion, run them too low and you'll introduce more noise than necessary.

Applying the concept of headroom and noise in the world of fixed point digital

Before we apply the concept of headroom and noise to the digital world, we must first understand the concept of dynamic range. Simply put, dynamic range refers to the difference between loud and quiet. In the studio, the greater the dynamic range of our signal chain is, the more we are able to cleanly capture sources that have varying dynamics.

In the analogue world, our dynamic range is limited by voltage and noise. The higher we can run our voltage, and the lower we can get our noise, the greater the dynamic range our equipment will have. Dynamic range is a good thing to have because it allows us to deal with something that has more dynamics and complexities than a square wave. By having more dynamic range, we can deal with signals that have greatly varying dynamics without introducing extraneous amounts of noise, or distorting it.

The way this changes in the world of fixed point digital is that we no longer have a recommended operating level defined by noise and headroom. We now deal with dynamic range defined by 'bits' - we essentially have a point where if a signal is too low it cannot be represented in the digital domain, and vice-versa. The dynamic range we have to deal with is the bit rate multiplied by 6. For 16 bit we have a dynamic range of 96dB, for 24 bit we have a theoretical dynamic range of 144dB. I say theoretical because whilst we have 144dB of dynamic range to play with once working in the 24bit digital domain, more often than not we are limited to a lesser dynamic range of the signal being captured by virtue of limitations imposed by the analogue front end and DACs.

So saying this, it would seem to make sense that good gain structure in the digital domain requires us to maximise dynamic range. Sure, the -18dBFS advice may keep you out of trouble insofar as you'll never run into distortion from overload, but why not work in 12 bit? This is essentially what you're doing following this advice because you've thrown away 18dB of dynamic range by doing so. (Well, 13 bit assuming you're recording at 16 bit). The problem with setting signals in the digital domain to such low levels is that generally people set levels at the assumed loudest dynamic, but during the actual performance they may go from very loud to very soft. Start playing too soft, and while you will still be capturing the performance, the low level wave forms that may be just as complex as the louder ones will only be represented by a few bits, essentially truncating some of the complexities and details and, god forbid, introducing distortion.

Now, this may be acceptable and inaudible to the regular listener 90% of the time, however we run into further problems if we take into account what happens when we compress a highly dynamic performance as is so commonly done now. Say we're recording to 16 bit, we've set our levels to -18dBFS and we have a performance where we have 54dB of dynamic range from the loudest section to the quietest details such as finger noise on a guitar and we compress it to bring the levels into line a bit more. What we're now doing is turning up details that have only been captured by 4 bits which are not only lacking detail or even becoming a little lost, but are probably sounding a little distorted. By the time your audio's been sent through the mastering engineers limiter, you're possibly looking at creating extra distortion that could have been avoided by utilising more of your dynamic range in the first place.

Applying all this to the typical studio-in-a-box

The typical recording solution that the majority of home recordists seem to use now is the 'computer audio interface' which contains everything they need except for the microphones and musicians. When I offered the 'below 0 peak' advice, I made quite an important disclaimer... "In your case..."

As stupidfatandugly has already said, "the piano is just straight from my keyboard into the interface." Now, I'm prepared to wager that a signal on the input side of one of these off the shelf solutions never even aproaches line level, except for when it's been inserted as a line input, in which case it's probably being attenuated immediately by a pair of resistors acting as a voltage divider. Why? A couple of reasons, going along the lines of typical manufacturer cost cutting, the fact that nearly all of them weren't designed and aren't able to be patched into and, common sense. It makes a lot of sense that the less complicated one of these are, the better.

Now, we're well past the days of fixed gain mic amps, and now it is standard to control gain using feedback... start with an amp that has a +'ve and -'ve input designed to give x amount of gain, and return the output signal into the -'ve input. The more feedback we return, the lower the gain. This feedback topology means we have a consistent s/n ratio that has already been defined by the microphone itself and the level of the source it's picking up, and the preamp design. No matter where we set our gain, our s/n ratio remains fairly constant as the out of phase feedback contains both the noise and the signal. This is how mic preamps have been made for quite a while now.

So, we have a preamp which will have a fairly constant s/n ratio regardless of gain, and we're going to feed this into an adc which, will probably overload if fed a typical line level signal... so why gain it up to line level in the first place to only attenuate it before it hits the ADC, even though we're not gaining anything insofar as we're not trying to drive compressors, eq's, or anything else that has a noise floor to contend with? Sure, we might start hitting on, or even a few dB's over, line level with a sin wave, but is this leading us to unwanted distortions??? Well, no. We're probably feeding an ADC that can't take much more than 2V on the input... say we're running a worst case scenario of 5V usb power with a questionable preamp, we're still going to have at least 6dB of headroom in the analogue circuitry.

The thing to remember with all this 'line level' brouhaha is that line level is merely a recommended operating level for the typical audio signal that still maintains a serviceable amount of headroom whilst still keeping us well above the noise floor. What happens if you go above line level??? Well, not much really, unless you peak above the overload point... then we hit distortion. Run a sin wave at +15dbU through a good console channel strip, and it will still come out a sin wave. Run a percussive guitar part through at +15dBU and it will be a different story... the thing to remember here is that the limiting factors are the overload point and the noise floor. Sure, if you go running too much above line level, you're going to give the power supply a run for it's money, but I wasn't really recommending running much above line level in the first place.

I'm going to finish up here, but I'd like to pose one question to those that keep hammering away about line level being so critical...

In a typical mix situation using an analogue console, how do I maintain line level through the console? If my inserts, eq, aux sends, groups, summing busses and what not are all meant to be driven at line level, how can I achieve this? The obvious answer is to not touch the eq or faders... apart from that I'm lost.

Peace and love and all that other tree hugging stuff.
 
I'm going to finish up here, but I'd like to pose one question to those that keep hammering away about line level being so critical...

In a typical mix situation using an analogue console, how do I maintain line level through the console? If my inserts, eq, aux sends, groups, summing busses and what not are all meant to be driven at line level, how can I achieve this? The obvious answer is to not touch the eq or faders... apart from that I'm lost.
That's what input gain and output gain on all the individual devices on the inserts and side busses are for. Every gain control along the chain is a stage at which the overall gain can be managed. You are misunderstanding if you think I'm saying that one *must* keep everything at line level like if it were a speed limit on the recording road:

You are absolutely right in that one wants to walk a line that minimizes analog noise and maximizes available headroom, and that choices need to be made at each gain stage as to which way to turn the gain (if at all) to either conserve as much potential gain as possible that way or to be willing to pay the cost of a few dB one way or another in order to take advantage of the analog characteristics of that piece of gear (one may purposely want to overdrive a preamp and pay the cost of increasing the noise floor in order to purposely induce some desired overdrive distortion, for example.) This is the meeting of art and science in the management of gain structure, and no it doesn't of necessity mean that everything has to adhere strictly to 0VU.

I can't speak for others, but the reason I keep "hammering" at the idea of line level is because it denotes a calibration point. Not only a calibration point for the electronics and the meters, but for a newbie understanding of how things work on a fundamental level - especially at the border between the analog and digital domains, where most of the confusion comes in.

It's important to note that on the analog side that 0VU is calibrated to represent a line level voltage, and that line level is usually somewhere around the "sweet spot" of where the circuitry in that black box is designed to operate to spec, or at the very least is the reference around with many of the other specs such as revolve. If a box has a rated self-noise of -75dBu (just for example), it's helpful to know that 0VU is actually 79dB above that because on that device 0VU is calibrated to +4dBu.

Second, that's important to know 0VU because we need to know how that relates to what we are actually seeing on the digital side, on the dBFS meters. Knowing this requires knowing the conversion calibration *from line level* on the analog side of the converter into dBFS on the digital side. If a box's specs show (again, just for example) that it's maximum output level - i.e. that when it's pushing solid ones out of the digital side - is +20dBu, that tells us that it has to be pushing +20dBu (16dB above a line level of +4dBu, or 16dB above 0VU) to hit 0dBFS on the digital side (assuming a unity gain setting on the digital software's part). That tells us right there, that a 0VU signal going into the converter will comes out at (in this case) -16dBFS on the digital side (+20dBu - +4dBu = 16dBs between 0dBFS and 0VU). We now know our calibration level (in this specific case) of 0VU = -16dBFS.

Why is that important? A couple of reasons. First, because, as you seem to infer also, these inexpensive interface boxes used by the average home recorder are just that, inexpensive interface boxes. They are not the best technology has to offer either in the quality of their analog preamp (another stage in the overall gain structure) or in their converters in either direction. The more you push either one past it's designed nominal operating level *just to achieve a certain unnecessary level on the digital side*, the more unnecessary noise and distortion you're introducing to the signal...and the more you're unnecessarily boosting the upstream noise floor while you're at it.

Second, because, amazingly enough, the digital software side has been equally designed to operate nominally at such levels. It's almost magic the first time one brings their tracks into the digital domain with an eye towards mirroring the analog gain structure rather than towards the erroneous idea of "maximizing digital bit usage", and follows a similar "line-level average" guideline to their digital gain structure as well (using the calibration discussed above), and they discover that their 2mix just seems to kind of work itself out almost optimally as far as headroom usage and dynamic range utilization, and how much better they feel their mixes sound than if they pushed the bits like the obsolete literature tells them to.

And, BTW, assuming one is recording at 24-bit word lengths (which one would be silly not to do these days), an 18dBFS RMS with, say, a 12dB crest factor, would put the peaks at -6dB. Comfortably below 0dBFS, but really only under-utilizing one bit of the 24. Not exactly a sacrifice, especially considering the benefits mentioned above.

Boosting the gain at the input to the converter or at the digital input to the recording software to "fill the last bit" will only serve to boost the upstream noise floor by 6dB and decrease the amount of available headroom downstream for signal processing and summing (leaving floating point out of it for now). Total dynamic range of the signal will not be increased, yet headroom will be decreased, and the audibility of the noise floor will be increased. Not exactly a bargain. Plus the potential for added noise by both stages of the converter itself if that's where you're doing the boosting (not only amp noise, but often the last 3dB or so of the conversion itself can have distortion artifacts introduced), makes it even less attractive.

G.
 
The thing here is that, in my mind, good digital gain structure requires the utilisation of the dynamic range available. In the analogue world if someone went running 10dB under line level - optimum level - we'd tell them that that's bad form... so why does this suddenly change in the digital world? Leaving floating point out of the equation provides a convenient answer as to why we would optimise our gain structure for downstream headroom but, once the audio has been captured, processing and summing in the digital domain takes place in floating point, which means headroom is no longer our main concern. I am the type who still recommends good gain structure once inside a DAW, and have never liked the idea of having to pull the master fader down more than a couple of dB because everything has been run too hot, although what's stopping us from turning it down upstream from the master? I do not have experience with many DAW's, but those which I do (Cubase and Pro Tools) eith contain a dedicated 'trim' plugin (Pro Tools), or a trim control permanently on the channel itself (Cubase). So, given that we're working in floating point and we have the ability to trim back to line level (or any other level we want) inside the DAW before we even touch a fader or process anything else, how's it hurting us to work towards peaking in such a way that we're taking advantage of the full headroom available to us?

The other concern of yours about operating outside of the optimum level whilst justified to some extent, I still feel does not apply to the studio-in-a-box. The reason I feel that it doesn't apply to the studio in a box has to do with the internal signal path (preamps feeding DACs) and the logical internal gain structure that would follow from such a design. (Why gain a signal more than the DAC needs if we're not feeding other processors?) As I've already said, the signal to noise ratio we achieve with the typical preamp is going to remain constant as already pre-defined by the microphone, cable and signal source (as we turn the gain up/down the noise and signal remain at the same ratio) so, even though we are raising the noise floor 6dB, we're also raising the signal 6dB. If it so happens that we have to turn that signal down 9dB in the mix, we're still turning the noise down 9dB, so we're not gaining anything in the way of s/n ratio by attempting to work at line level as we're not feeding anything else but the DAC.

As for hitting unwanted distortion when operating above line level, I also feel this does not apply to the studio-in-a-box. A big reason for this is the same as why people so often associate digital with being cold and harsh and tape being warm.

That so-called 'old school' sound of tape is not only a result of tape. The real story of that 'old school' warmth lies in everything else that came before it, not just the tape. Everything else that comes before the tape (and the tape itself) is part of where the idea of line level being so important comes from. Before even getting to tape our signal would pass through various stages of electronics which were far from linear. A common component critical to us keeping at line level that would introduce some of this non linearity and which every signal would pass through *at least* one of on it's way to tape is the humble transformer. With transformers (and tape), line level was critical to achieving the best performance from our gear as now we're working with magnetics, not just voltages. The limiting factor is now no longer peak voltage, but RMS power. Feeding too much RMS through a transformer would cause the core to saturate, which means the signal coming out on the secondary is now distorted. The amount it would saturate would be dependant on many things, including the frequency content and the transformer design itself. Hitting transformers above their optimum RMS level is asking for distortion. It's a similar story with hitting tape, we're governed by RMS, not peak. Transformers and tape will typically absorb extreme transients by virtue of the fact that they are slow reacting, and would saturate at RMS levels that generated more magnetic flux than they could handle.

On the other hand, the studio-in-a-box typically contains a 'preamp on a chip' solution (or a simple pair of transistors feeding an opamp buffer) that are designed to, and also deliver excellent technical specs - they all pass 20/20 flat with no problems, they're extremely fast, and they act with near perfect linearity from go to whoa. Even running close to saturation point through one of these preamps will still deliver very similar results as running at line level. The governing factor of the linearity that will be achieved in this sort of preamp is not RMS power, but peak levels.

The below 0dBFS peak answer is not intended as a lazy answer, nor as the be all to end all optimum answer. It is one that was given to stupidfatandugly with consideration to his gear. If getting up to around -3dBFS peak required him running say, a Neve 1073 above line level, then the below 0dBFS peak answer is not one I would have offered. Being in the situation that he's working with gear that is more linear, I do not see where the problem of aiming to maximise dynamic range lies. Add to this that the as a manufacturer you're aware that the typical end user is probably going to set their levels based off of their peak meter readings, and you would be silly to design a product that's going to introduce unwanted distortion if they do so. That's just asking for people to start slagging it off as being crap... not really something you'd aim for.
 
The thing here is that, in my mind, good digital gain structure requires the utilisation of the dynamic range available.
I agree; but the way to get the most out of the dynamic range in digital is to leave yourself headroom. There is no extra room to be had at the bottom because the analog noise floor that's been recorded over to digital has already put a lower limit on things.

If there's a range of, say, 75dB in the signal on the analog side of the converter between the accumulated noise floor and the peak signal, that's how much dynamic range the signal will have when it's recorded in digital as well. Only 13 bits are significant. Pushing the signal up to the top of the digital range does nothing to change that. If you boost the digital input gain in the DAW to record the signal "hotter", all you're doing is shifting those bits up the scale (and increasing the volume of the noise while you're at it). There is no greater "resolution" or dynamic range because what's happening below the noise floor is irrelevant. The end result is that you're simply taking away headroom for future processing and summing, and getting no benefit from doing it. In fact, in order to get things to mix well, you're going to have to do exactly as you say, you're just going to have to turn everything back down again by adjusting mix bus levels, channel trims and/or automation levels anyway, in effect just pushing those bits back down again. It's just an exercise in futility to record hotter than the nominal input level.

There are only two ways - two gain stages - where one can control the gain of the digital recording to push things up towards 0dBFS; one is the input gain on the digital side, which we have just discredited above. The other is to boost the input gain on the analog preamp going into the converter, so that the signal comes out of the converter already "maximized", if you will. Well, that's still an analog gain stage, so the analog "rules of thumb" should still be in effect. What is the best setting that hits the right balance between headroom and noise level?

Pushing the preamp to saturate the converters is usually not the right answer to that question. Not only does boosting the preamp gain on the analog in of the converter boost the volume of the aggregate noise level, but it potentially also adds it's own noise to the soup along with the potential of conversion distortion from pushing the converter itself (a documented effect.) And since we've already seen that there is no real benefit to recording the digital that hot anyway, we're paying a cost without receiving any benefit in return.

If when recording, however, we actually follow the conversion calibration, leave the digital input (record) gain alone at unity, we can now use the dBFS record meters as a sort of peak-reading VU meter for the converter, understanding that 0VU on that meter would actually be whatever the converter calibration is. This comes in particularly handy for the multitude of prosumer-level interfaces that are equipped with no actual or usable metering of their own.

This allows us to then monitor signal level and record (based upon our ears as well, of course) according to what's best at the converter, and then let the converted digital signal just come in "naturally". The only thing we need to worry about on the digital side is to make sure the peaks are not clipping. But anything below that is just fine, because at 24 bit we have some 140dB of digital "floor room" to work with, which is far more than even your above-average analog chain can ever provide it.

And the amazing thing is that when working on a typical project with typical levels, is that the mix tends to come out "right" at an RMS of somewhere between -20 and -14dBFS and transients approaching -6 to 0dBFS, without having to throttle back the mix bus or do extra channel trimming besides the normal mixing needs in order to get things to fit. Sounding great and in prime condition for quality mastering.

G.
 
I do not have experience with many DAW's, but those which I do (Cubase and Pro Tools) eith contain a dedicated 'trim' plugin (Pro Tools), or a trim control permanently on the channel itself (Cubase). So, given that we're working in floating point and we have the ability to trim back to line level (or any other level we want) inside the DAW before we even touch a fader or process anything else, how's it hurting us to work towards peaking in such a way that we're taking advantage of the full headroom available to us?
What is the point of running the analog side too hot so you can 'use up all the bits', just to then turn it down afterwards?

The other concern of yours about operating outside of the optimum level whilst justified to some extent, I still feel does not apply to the studio-in-a-box. The reason I feel that it doesn't apply to the studio in a box has to do with the internal signal path (preamps feeding DACs) and the logical internal gain structure that would follow from such a design. (Why gain a signal more than the DAC needs if we're not feeding other processors?) As I've already said, the signal to noise ratio we achieve with the typical preamp is going to remain constant as already pre-defined by the microphone, cable and signal source (as we turn the gain up/down the noise and signal remain at the same ratio) so, even though we are raising the noise floor 6dB, we're also raising the signal 6dB. If it so happens that we have to turn that signal down 9dB in the mix, we're still turning the noise down 9dB, so we're not gaining anything in the way of s/n ratio by attempting to work at line level as we're not feeding anything else but the DAC.
Assuming that what you say is true and that there is no 'line level inside these all-in-one boxes, why would you want a different set of 'rules' existing for different types of interfaces. The advent of these all-in-one boxes have confused enough people because they don't realize that the box contains preamps, converters, DSP monitor mixers, etc... Then they read something on a forum that makes them start hunting around for converters because they don't realize that they already have them.

As for hitting unwanted distortion when operating above line level, I also feel this does not apply to the studio-in-a-box. A big reason for this is the same as why people so often associate digital with being cold and harsh and tape being warm.
When put in a position of teaching people how something is done, generic 'best practices' that will work in every situation are best to have plastered on the internet for all time.

On the other hand, the studio-in-a-box typically contains a 'preamp on a chip' solution (or a simple pair of transistors feeding an opamp buffer) that are designed to, and also deliver excellent technical specs - they all pass 20/20 flat with no problems, they're extremely fast, and they act with near perfect linearity from go to whoa. Even running close to saturation point through one of these preamps will still deliver very similar results as running at line level. The governing factor of the linearity that will be achieved in this sort of preamp is not RMS power, but peak levels.
In your average cheap pro-sumer all-in-one interface, how much headroom do you think the manufacturers build into the analog circuitry past what would clip the converters?

The below 0dBFS peak answer is not intended as a lazy answer, nor as the be all to end all optimum answer. It is one that was given to stupidfatandugly with consideration to his gear. If getting up to around -3dBFS peak required him running say, a Neve 1073 above line level, then the below 0dBFS peak answer is not one I would have offered. Being in the situation that he's working with gear that is more linear, I do not see where the problem of aiming to maximise dynamic range lies.
But it doesn't teach him anything about gain structure. In a while, he might outgrow his all-in-one unit and buy a line level device and some outboard preamps. Not realizing that everything has changed, he will continue using your advice, but now, it's incorrect.

Add to this that the as a manufacturer you're aware that the typical end user is probably going to set their levels based off of their peak meter readings, and you would be silly to design a product that's going to introduce unwanted distortion if they do so. That's just asking for people to start slagging it off as being crap... not really something you'd aim for.
Of course, when Digi started selling HD, they admitted that the old 888 interfaces started distorting at -4dbfs. They were using that fact as a selling point for the new HD interfaces. Don't put anything past manufacturers making the cheap stuff sound cheaper than it has to be just to get you to upgrade.
 
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