Sound cards, soundproofing

[musicfest]

Hi,
I'm in a Brisbane based band and I have half a million questions. We are building a "rehersal room" underneath my friends house. Can anyone offer any cheap solutions for soundproofing a room and also setting the room up for basic recordings (demos etc).
We are also looking to purchase a sound card rather than mixers and recorders etc. Does anyone know of any good sound cards that would suit the guitar/vocals, guitar/vocals, bass, drums situation?. I'm really new to all this.. if anyone could offer some advice it would be extremely helpful.
Thanks,
Billy (musicfest)

 

[Even]

an age old and super great sound muffler are old cloth sleeping bags. ugly as hell but boy they work. carpet remnants are always a good and cheap option. those are the two least expensive methods we always used. and as far as sound cards.. well theres gotta be 50 opinions on that one.. browse this syte

 

[musicfest]

Hey, thanks for that Even. So you think old sleeping bags etc works wonders? I was speaking to someone in at the Australian Academy of Music (brisbane) and they were saying something about how soundproofing the room would make it bad for recordings. Do you think it would be best to have a separate (is it called a `console' room?) room for the pc / mixing / effects / recording? thanks heaps for all of your advice!

 

[dmas]

If you check on construciton/renovation sites they sometimes have loads of extra materials. Everything from doors, sheetrock, carpet, studs, partitions, ceiling tiles and more can help you soundproof.

NOTE: I do not mean stealing from construction sites or making "deals" with workers on construction sites. I mean asking the foreman/headhoncho for permission.

 

[Even]

Well sure its most ideal to have a seperate control room. this is the place the beady eyed little engineer sits with a maniacle snear as he tinkers with gobs of knobs and buttons. Meanwhile we all sit and play our track in a secret room with a $2000 mic that sends its signal to the dude through patchbays and fiber optic wonder lines. and somehow this dude (who is god in disguise) takes our lame signal and creates sounds from the heavens. But the big issue here is honestly starting with what you can affort, and getting the best you can with it. We as beginners can run out and grab the latest and greatest of everything and lock ourselves in a bomb shelter (amazingly similar to a studio) but find that it takes us 6 months to figgure out all the gadgets... which by then are out dated. Mute the walls some. thats a must. Without that your sound will richochet everywhere making what your ear hears think it's great. but the tape or dat unit hears all this muff muff stuff. Record dry as often as possible, you can add tons of effects to a recorded track, but it is really hard to lessen an effect that you recorded. For a cheesy test, open sound recorder on your PC, record a 45 second wave totally clean, and then play with the "effects" option they give you. Thats just a tiny example of the way we can manipulate a clean sound with decent software.

 

[musicfest]

Hi, Thanks for your advice,
Even- could you possibly explain to me what you mean by:

Mute ? (as in make quiet i know that) - do you mean make soundproof.

Dry - when you say record dry, what exactly do you mean?

As you can tell I'm very new to this, the only remote thing I know about recording is the basic operating of a TASCAM 424 and fundamentals of computer based recording...
...
anyhow
thanks heaps for everything you have all said so far!!

 

[Even]

Yes sorry, I know my opinions often lack professional clarity. As far as muting the walls go, well you mentioned it is a basement room. So I imagine that the walls are pretty solid. Super hard walls (concrete or wood) will not absorb any sound. Any sound that hits it will bounce right back off of it. When this happens the sound can seem very loud and to a Microphone it just sort of rings. So in the case of the boys and I when we had a garage, we hung up the aformentioned sleeping bags to prevent the sound from actually hitting a solid wall. That way all the volume was exactly what our amps or speakers wanted and not an echo from the room itself.
As far as clean sounds for recording: Recording and live are two different creatures. Recording gives us the chance to make the sound perfect (opionin based mind you). So for the purpose of creating a decent demo recording lay down the tracks clean. just notes and melody. save the track on whatever recording device you have, and then add the effects:distortion, chorus so on. Compare it to the way ones girlfriend is befor going out. if she is an attractive lady (the clean sound) then she will knock your socks off when dolled up (the added effects). Bottom line start with the best raw natural sound you can, which is why you want to mute or eliminate sound from bouncing off the walls. How soundproof you want to go is up to you, your budget, and the natural shape of the room.

 

[Eddie N]

recording " dry " is recording with no effects what so ever...
- eddie -

 

[musicfest]

Hehe. Love the way you put it Even! It now makes a lot more sense. The situation we have is an Old Queensland (ie a house raised up on posts with fence like walls underneath). We have nailed sheets (pine i think) to these walls, and we're about to add a layer of second/damaged acoustic sound proofing foam. We've also got carpet ready to cover the walls etc. I know what you mean how `in the situation of a garage' how the sound echos like crazy off of the tin etc and I can understand how it would of walls of similar nature (brick etc). umm but we're looking at using materials that don't bounce back the sound... rather they absorb the sound through the layers.. we've been thinking about getting someone in to look at bass traps etc (cause I've heard from everywhere that bass is a real pain to keep contained to one area ). So do you recommend (with guitars) recording without distortion or with? I personally thought with distortion would be better as you get the amp and speaker sound, but.. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. many people have said that its better to start off with know effects cause you can add as much as you like later... rather than getting an effect that you don't want... how exactly do you get the effects in later.. through the effects loops on the 4 track / recording device ?? what should be done in the case of a Guitar -> Boss Me30 (effects unit) -> Marshall VS265R (stereo)? Would I be better off recording directly into the 4 track (or when we finally get a sound card, into that?) ??
thanks heaps
(apologies if there's gramatical errors im really slack in that department).

 

[Even]

The bottom line is to play and explore. Live loud and love it. Try out several different recording situations with and without what ever effects. See the beauty of adding effects (or editing) can only really be explored if and when you have the tools. The tools being in the case of a computer, editing software. These software packages can take a simple signal (usually a wav. file) and give you the chance to add things to it. But all of that is usless information if you do not have a computer, soundcard and the software. If you have a multi-track recorder that does not have onboard effects that let you tinker later, then you will probably pull your hair out trying to add effects from outside machines. On a secondary note... drummers are a soundmans nightmare. These clowns wanna be heard, period. You can shove a pillow in his bass.. he will kick it harder. Best plan for you for now is to just set up a socially acceptable sound level and play with recording levels. As you can see from this BBS alone, there are 1000's of options and preferances. Get a sound semi tolerable and lay a few tracks. If and when you are not pleased with a certain result, we can all snap down and try to put a finger on it.

 

[musicfest]

thanks for all your advice even!

I think we're sort of going about everything that way and it's working out slowly! We are interested in finding more info. on sound cards etc or cheap methods for recording. We have a computer capable of doing most things... We're curious as to what you get with all these cheap sound card deals .. what they're capable of.

sorry if that makes no sense..
thanks for all the great advice so far.. I plan to print all this stuff out.. Its like an audio magazine but its easier to understand etc.. thanks a bunch

billy

 

[dobro]

Hi Musicfest - there are lots of good soundcards around, but generally speaking, the more channels the card has, the more expensive it is. You can get soundcards with 2,4 or 8 channels, so the question you have to ask yourself is how much you're willing to pay for the ability to record lots of sources at the same time.

 

[musicfest]

Hey, thanks for all your comments, I don't know how well I am at sticking to the topic (hehe you could probably notice a version of chinese whispers with my messages). Today I had a look at some sound card, and one thing was made perfectly clear.. they're expensive and not as simple as I thought. I've been reading in Audio Technology Australia about the ISIS, Yamaha DSP, Pulsar, Soundscape Mixtreme + others. I was told that the whole deal is a lot more complicated then it seems. for instance, the computer: needs to be an intel chip, probably want 128megs ram, 2 hard disk drives (or a large/fast one partitioned) etc. The thought crossed my mind about the whole VS vs Computer System idea mentioned in another message, so I had a look at a heap of systems like that such as the VS880, VS1680, Yamaha MD-4 and an AKAI model (a 12 track that, for what we want to do is really a 6 track- anyhow) but they are all way out of my/our price range. So one thing I'd like to ask anyone out there.. would it be cheaper to get a VS unit (or a similar 8 channel+ digitial console) or get: 1 computer upgrade (motherboard + ram, hard drive) - Sound card (8 channels simultaneous recording if possible- preferrably with an external unit such as the Soundscape mixtreme.. )
anyhow I'm rambling and I could go on for hours.. thanks for your advice even + everyone else, its helped heaps!

web: http://come.to/the_musicfest

 

[Even]

Your dilema is not entirely unique to just you. The issue of equiptment cost and what exactly one needs as opposed to what would be really nice, is fairly common to all of us. At this point we have to shrug and do the best we can for the cash in the pocket. Heres an option to consider while building and growing. Instead of dropping the whole kitty on one or two killer items to record with, nab a few reasonably priced items. For example, as nice as the roland VS series is (for $1500-2500) or some of these beefy software deals (Cubase, Sound forge, cakewalk)... nab a cheap but decent 4-8 track cassette recorder. You cna nab up one of these new in prices ranging from $150-$500. The principle of them is gonna give you the same effect, multitrack recording. The chance for you and the boys to put it down in a decent hearable format. See the problem is, as I am sure you are finding, that as soon as you scoop up one super powered wonder recording gizmo, you need to have six other things to really make it kick ass. You need this whopper interface, 50gigajammie puter, breakout wonder deal, software from hell, poweramps, monitors 5 linked DATS, $10000 sound board, $3000 mics (8 of them) and three miles of assorted cables. Now what? how do we hook em and use em? Nab a cheap 4 track. work the music. Learn the art of mixing. And it really is not too hard to pump the tunes from one of those 4 tracks into a PC and dandy it up a bit. Just like building the best room... one must work reasonably with the resources available. So to wrap it up, just because it is not expensive or techknowlgically state of the art, a cheap 4-8 track and a low end software (N'tracks) program could very well be all you dudes really need to get started and open the learning doors. Starting slow now can save gobs of cash on un-needed gear that has really great reviews.

 

[musicfest]

Hey, I've still got heaps of questions.
Umm Even your comments have been great!! but umm .. we're keen on using digital gear to record if its possible

We've been using (correction from another post) a TASCAM 414 4 track and we're after quaity a little higher then that and preferrably the ability to CUT COPY and PASTE. (which I don't think is possible without extreme difficulty on a tape based machine). We've looked at the Yamaha MD4 and MD8 etc. But for what they are, I think they're pretty expensive - and also, not really expandable when we get the funds to do so. The ROLAND VS systems are a bit out of our price range. So I thought, maybe go the sound card. but you're right about all the costs involved, it might work out costing more than buying a console.

What about buying a cheap mixer that has a lot of outputs and recording it to say a 4 channel sound card (which are in our price range) ??? does anyone know any cheap/good sound cards? The ISIS system looks okay, but what other costs are involved?

Thanks
Billy

 

[Even]

If you are looking Yamaha MD8, I would say hey dude..save a few bucks and check out the Korg D-8. its a digital machine with a 1.4 gig HD. Costs about $800 here. The Yamy goes for about $1100. Considering a good studio mixer? go to www.carvin.com and peek at the SM162. 16 channels, effects in and out (none onboard) eq... good mixer for @ 300. I used one of those and loved it. you can run the whole mix out via phone jack, or (I love this) each channel can be routed out seperately with a 1/4 jack, so you can play the whole gig, but choose what channels you are recording... very sweet. Soundcards.. they still baffle the snot out of me. but the korg is pretty much a stand alone. Very similar to the Roland VS880. check out the korg page and compare the specs on the two.

 

[musicfest]

the KORG D-8 sounds cool, could you possibly let me know of any other specifications apart from the 1.4 gig hdd (sounds cool - $USD 800 is pretty cheap I think).. so you'd buy that and a mixer (simliar to what you're talking about) and record the mix down version to the KORG D-8 (or is the KORG D-8 a multi track recorder (which would be heaps better).. thanks for your advice im off to check out carvin.com

I'll have to check the exchange rates etc, but it sounds like we're being ripped off over here. for instance the VS 1680 (roland) is about 5800$ (australian)

anyhow
thanks heaps for all (emphasis) of your help!!

i'm glad I checked out this site before rushing out and buying gear (hehe quote).

seeya

 

[musicfest]

Hey Even,

I just had a look at the site, I saw the SM162, it looks pretty good (I'm about to look at specs etc), I'm interested in the C800 (from price and first glimpse) - do you know anything about the C800?

Perhaps it might work out cheaper to buy from overseas! ?

Thanks
Billy
(musicfest)

 

[musicfest]

Hi (again)

On the carvin site, I couldn't get to the ordering info, to see if they shipped overseas etc etc. I had a look (closeup) at the SM162 and the C800. After finding an Australia site that had the KORG D-8 for sale I realised that I'd already seen it around heaps. In Australia its going for about $2500. It's still within the ballpark so to speak.
umm what about using something like the SM162 / C800 with a soundcard (i know you must hate all this sound card stuff)..

Are there any cheaper alternatives to the KORG D-8??

Thanks,
Billy
(musicfest)

 

[Even]

The Korg D-8 is just about the cheapest thing that I have seen in the 8 track digital recording class.The fostex FD-8 may be a tiny bit cheaper.or for half the price fostex has the FD-4. but 4 tracks is really not a heap.
Korg specs: 128 tracks including V tracks.16 track PB. 8 Track record
Format: 24bit/16 uncompressed. sheesh I don't know. let me scare up a link or some damn thing. I know if you dudes go to www.8thstreet.com you will find it for 2000 clams. thats the first and only price I have seen on it. Honestly I have nmot really answered your sound card question because A: I am clueless about them compared to some of these dudes. and B: I am still a bit baffled as to what your PC plans are.. multi channel input, one track.. digital quality. You know... all those things