Singing review

TAE

All you have is now
Well brother GT I feel for you on that 8 day excursion where you were basically forced to listen to this every day whether you wanted to or not ...In that situation I get where you are coming from. However....in normal karaoke situations it's in a bar, club, restaurant where if it is really bad you don't have to stay and you can leave. To say if you can't sing in key don't sing karaoke in public is not equitable. Let em sing and have their 15 seconds of fame. As long as it is not 24/7 for days at a time of all bad singers...that's just torture. Maybe you were teleported to hell and you just thought you were on holiday ;)
 

TAE

All you have is now
Yep Catholic school too! Singing was a requirement and we were graded on it. Used to piss me off that my buddy would always get an A and I'd get a B...hell I sang just as good and with just as much commitment bit noooooo I get a B ...sheesh... We also sang a ton of latin songs. I seriously don't remember anyone NOT being able to sing in key and we had 60 kids in our classes (Baby Boomers)
 

Orson

Well-known member
Thing is though, Bono always had a decent voice. His choice of name {Bono Vox} was quite revealing ~ it actually means "good voice." People can and have criticized him for all kinds of things ~ but his singing ability isn't really in question. He's not Leonard Cohen !
Criticism where due. Even Leonards voice fitted certain songs. 'Dance Me To The End Of Love' is a perfect example. A great overlooked song with a voice that would clear a forest.


Mr Bono is bad to average at best and certainly not up there with the best as he tries to make out. But then that his and their way. Tell everyone you are great. It worked for him and them. And that's why not to give up.

There are lots of successful 'singers' out there who found a niche for their voice even though they may be considered dreadful.
 
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LazerBeakShiek

AKA Optimus Prime LEGO Vampire
Does Vocaroo have a db meter? Parts are louder than others. Words pop out.

Singing with breath support and projection is better. Proper support will tighten up the starts and stops from word to word. Proper support will keep the level even throughout the sung phrase.

Not familiar with Vocaroo is it some online daW?
 

Nifer

New member
Does Vocaroo have a db meter? Parts are louder than others. Words pop out.

Singing with breath support and projection is better. Proper support will tighten up the starts and stops from word to word. Proper support will keep the level even throughout the sung phrase.

Not familiar with Vocaroo is it some online daW?
Thanks for your advice.
Vocaroo is an online voice recorder.
 

CrowsofFritz

Flamingo!
When I was a kid in grade school, the nuns would teach us singing by walking around with a pitch pipe. She would hit a note, and we would have to sing that note. If you were off, she would blow the note again. Repeat until you got it. Lots of Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Da in that class. Hear the pipe, listen to your own note. She would do the hand gestures up and down as well. Eventually most of the kids would start hitting them. Then we would get to sing in the choir at church.

Do they still teach music in school anymore? My son did some French Horn in 6th/7th grade, but it was for the after school jazz band.
I was in orchestra in middle school (about 15 years ago). In wasn’t after-school. It was in school. I hated orchestra so much.
 

rob aylestone

Well-known member
I'll do the comment then - sadly, this is more akin to the first. You don't seem to be able to pick out the melody to sing, so we're back to ups and downs, but usually on the wrong notes - some you have tried to hit are actually the harmony to the one you should be on. You'll perhaps just have to select songs that you can manage and fit the voice - that's not one. You just need local face to face advice from an expert. Even if it's just one session, it will be really useful.

If you were in my studio then after take two, I'd quietly suggest we break the song down into phrases, and work on each one until you hit it. I'd check with you and say "So you want me to stop if you make mistakes?" Then we'd stop a lot and start building the song in short phrases and edit them together. The snag is you are having to ask - so presumably you cannot hear what we hear. You can't fix it on your own. You won't know when it's right.
 

grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
To say if you can't sing in key don't sing karaoke in public is not equitable. Let em sing and have their 15 seconds of fame
It may not be equitable but when it comes to singing, I'm no egalitarian. In a church I used to be part of, people would get up and sing and most were OK, average, and once in a while, someone would get up and they'd be awful. I remember getting into a discussion with someone and I said that the person that had sung shouldn't have and why and I was told that God loved what they did because it came from the heart. My view on that is that God is God and can afford to love the sound of someone's genuine heart ~ but the rest of us are human and can't !
The thing is, I genuinely believe most human beings can sing. I genuinely believe that with a little work and repetition, we can replicate a note heard with our mouths.
I'm not interested in 15 minutes of fame for a karaoke singer that can't sing or couldn't be bothered to learn a song that's going to be sung to the public. That one can walk out of a venue where a lousy singer is pumping out aural bile is true but I stand by my assertion ~ if you're going to sing in public, one's primary thought should be that other people have to listen to this. We wouldn't be so happy that someone got up with a trumpet if they hadn't at least worked on being able to play sufficiently on it to prevent murderous feelings emanating from the floor {!!}.
Or maybe not ! :ROFLMAO:

Criticism where due. Even Leonards voice fitted certain songs
No problem with that. It's just not much of a voice. In saying that though, it's passable some of the time and if he volunteered to sing on any of my songs I wouldn't say no for some of them.
Mr Bono is bad to average at best and certainly not up there with the best
While that is a subjective view, I don't disagree with elements of it. I really like his voice but I don't consider him one of the best. But at the end of the day, it's about whether I like the song and the performance, not micro-analysing every aspect of it. I love Ritchie Blackmore's playing in every way on Deep Purple's debut album "Shades of Deep Purple" ~ except the actual tone of the guitar. But that doesn't mean that it gets in the way of my enjoyment of those songs.
And that's why not to give up
I agree. There may well come a day however, when a person may just have to accept they have no voice that can carry songs.

There are lots of successful 'singers' out there who found a niche for their voice even though they may be considered dreadful
I agree. There's a difference though, between bad singing and singing that one does not like. There are loads of vocalists whose voices I don't like but they are great, good, OK or average singers.
On the other hand there are people like Yoko Ono or Sid Vicious that had dreadful voices. I can't listen to their stuff because the voices are out front and are pretty much unlistenable to my ears.
Can I have your last thoughts on this recording ? (Put the gun down by ZZ Ward) :

https://voca.ro/1msvZwFAQfxc


The best parts are the parts where you talk rather than sing.
I really don't want to discourage you. You seem to like singing. But you've got a long way to go and a lot of heavy lifting to do to get your voice into shape. There's a huge chasm between where you are now {which is what you asked us to review} and where you need to be to be the average that most of us are at. Average but unique will do. But as I said earlier, if you are prepared to work at it, who knows.
When I started teaching myself to play guitar, for the first few months even I used to despair at the noise I made and I found it so hard to smoothly change chords. I stuck at it and got to the point where I can play guitar. Not well. I'm never going to be a Hendrix on electric, a Segovia on acoustic or a McGuinn on 12 string ~ but I don't want to be. Average but unique will do. I'm a terrible mandolin player. I'm a hopeless banjo player. I stink at double bass. In fact, I'm pretty lame at every instrument that I play. However.......I can play all of those things sufficiently to be able to record them in the songs I write. But it's not easy, it's hard work ~ but I wanted to utilize various instruments in my music and so I work at them. My point is don't take the verdict today as the final word but what we hear today needs a serious overhaul.
 

TAE

All you have is now
Well science has had its go at this subject and the conclusion is HERE.....like it or not @ 4% of any given population is going to be full fledged tone deaf and all the hard work in the world is not going to make them a better singer..the next 7% which I suspect the OP is within or very close to that spectrum may be able to get close but again impossible for them to ever be pitch perfect, the same as it is impossible for someone who is color blind to see the color spectrum as most people do. All the practice in the world looking at a rainbow will not improve their ability to see what they can't see...or in the case of those with Amusia (tone deafness) able to hear what they just can't hear... Sucks because singing can be such a cool spiritual thing and really get the endorphins going...maybe for those that are tone deaf they still get the spiritual endorphin rush...ya know singing is a lot more than just singing...kind of like standing there naked..for some it's easy for some it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to stand up and sing...now add to that the adrenalin and endorphin rushes that come with it and you are having an emotional / spiritual experience. I would suspect that happens to both those who sing in key and those that don't. Now that love and adulation you get when you bare your soul is a whole other bonus...that affirmation that you moved somebody else to feel what you feel, that you moved them emotionally in a positive way...the applause and the attaboys sure don't suck... So back to the karaoke..I still say let em sing and get their ya ya's out...your particular 8 days of out of tune torture left scars on you that in normal situations would not have. You're in a bar and someone is terrible you can walk out or stay and observe the joy that that poor soul who was cheated of normal hearing is getting from giving it a go at the mic. Kinda of like watching the disabled olympics...joy is joy accomplishments are to be celebrated at all levels...seek the good and praise it...
 

Orson

Well-known member
Whether you are serious or just having a laugh. There are singers and bands who had hits when they couldnt sing or play a note (at first). They simply found a niche and went for it and without the record companies help.

A few examples coming up of hit songs by like people. So don't give up. You may even develop a great voice yet. But for now some encouragement because if you don't take yourself too seriously and try and be something you are not. You will fit in somewhere. Just as these did and some still do.

 

grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
All the practice in the world looking at a rainbow will not improve their ability to see what they can't see
I agree. Completely.
However, if someone colour blind painted a picture of a rainbow that was just colours with no resemblance to a rainbow, should one pretend it's a glorious artistic encapsulation of one ? Should it be put up in a public gallery ?
...or in the case of those with Amusia (tone deafness) able to hear what they just can't hear...
Amusia has got to be one of the most ironic words out there.
Sucks because singing can be such a cool spiritual thing and really get the endorphins going...maybe for those that are tone deaf they still get the spiritual endorphin rush...ya know singing is a lot more than just singing
I agree. Completely.
But I think we're unnecessarily crossing swords here because we are talking about two completely different things.
I thoroughly support the freedom of absolutely anyone to sing if that is what they want to do. And you're right, there's a heck of a lot more to singing 😱 than just singing.
But we're not really talking about just singing. We're talking about 👩‍🎤 👨🏿‍🎤performing. That's the difference. If someone cannot help the fact that they cannot respond to music, or hear notes and pitches, that is in the realm of science. When it comes to performance, science doesn't come into it. Performance has two distinct realms to it, that of the performer and that of the punter. The punter desires entertainment that, unless they are a person that gets a buzz from witnessing a trainwreck or a masochist, is pleasurable. Within certain bounds, the performer delivers that.
Now, I don't think that the punter should dictate to the performer how they should be or what kind of music/song/film/poem etc they should do. You take on board what the artist/performer delivers. But the performer is duty bound to at least make the effort to entertain those that they are there to entertain.
If you give most kids a drum or something percussive, they'll just hit it with no particular thoughts as to time, rhythm etc. They'll have a great time for a bit and there's a place for that ~ as long as one isn't foisting that on the public who have come to listen to something they'll be entertained by.
I would suspect that happens to both those who sing in key and those that don't
It does. No doubt about it.
Most people that can sing in key are never likely to perform. So it doesn't really matter. I think people, whether they can sing or not should express themselves vocally to their hearts content.
Performing it is a different matter. Some people might love the sound of the violin but can't play it. I wouldn't encourage them to get up publicly and play either but I would encourage them till the cows come home if they want to play a violin 🎻 in the privacy of their own abode or with like minded friends who also can't particularly play an instrument but all like making a noise together.
Also, if people that can't sing are in situations where singing is an option like a congregation, at a gig as part of the crowd, at a sports event, being somewhere where a national anthem 🇬🇵 is being sung etc, then go for it, loud and proud. Whether it's in or out of tune in such situations is irrelevant.
your particular 8 days of out of tune torture left scars on you that in normal situations would not have
The funny thing is that it hasn't left scars on me. For me, it's an amusing story to tell. I felt that way about singing a good 5 decades before that happened. My Mum told me that when I was really little and she used to sing, I used to cry ! I believe her because by the time I was about 11 or 12 I remember that her singing voice used to drive me up the wall. But it wasn't because she couldn't sing.
Over the years, I've heard all kinds of singers and the overwhelming majority have been OK. Once in a blue moon, I've heard a singer that wasn't all that, but still not terrible. And I've heard karaoke singers. Again, the majority of them have been at the very least OK. I hear kids singing all the time and it's not difficult to tell the difference between someone that is merely indisciplined and someone who literally has no idea or ability because they are pretty rare.
I'm not even sure that I'd give people props for getting up on a stage to do something they clearly can't do. Many people would but I'd be asking more awkward questions......
You're in a bar and someone is terrible you can walk out or stay and observe the joy that that poor soul who was cheated of normal hearing is getting from giving it a go at the mic
That's kind of emotive. If someone was cheated of normal sight, would you observe the joy that poor soul is getting from driving regardless of what is going on on the roads ?
A few years back, I was out shopping and outside one of the shops this guy was playing a guitar 🎸with 4 strings and it was terrible. In fact, it wasn't even terrible, it was terrencible. The strings were out of tune, his rhythm non-existent and whatever he was playing was unrecognizable to man and beast alike {!!}. Anyway, after I'd done my shopping I passed the guy on my way back and I thought, I've got to say something to him. So I said to him, "'ere mate, if you're going to stand out on the street and play guitar and expect people to, or even hope people will, give you money for your playing, the very least you could do is make the effort to tune your guitar and play something that sounds like a tune or at least something people can connect with, particularly if you made it up or are making it up as you go." He looked at me and said "was it really that bad ?" and I said to him, yeah, it was.
I'll always stop to listen to buskers. I'm not interested in professional studio or Carnegie Hall quality. I don't mind if the busker only knows 2 chords or one song. I do mind if the busker can't play or sing !
Kinda of like watching the disabled olympics...joy is joy accomplishments are to be celebrated at all levels...
Again, a rather different scenario. When we had the Olympics here in 2012, I went to 3 days of events, 2 of which were the paralympics and I watched many days of the paralympics on TV. It was heartwarming and I really dug it. But there wasn't a single competitor I saw that couldn't do their chosen event. Even the people that couldn't see had help in track and field if need be. And so the competition was on a level playing field and competitors really were competing. 98% of the time I wasn't even aware that these were paralympians.
seek the good and praise it...
The good. Yeah.
It's funny, technology has enabled us as musical people to do a whole wide range of things that we find difficult, especially when it comes to recording. Non drummers can put together good, solid drum tracks, with VSTIs, those of us that don't play a fraction of the available instruments on offer can have them in our creations, varispeed has enabled those of us not great on particular instruments to still be able to play parts etc. Rap/Hip hop and spoken word have even enabled those that don't have singing voices they're comfortable with to be able to express themselves with words and sampling has brought a whole new dimension to creating musical backing and soundscapes. But the one arena that has yet to be broached is that of the voice. Sure, we've had vocoders and pitch correction and various manglers, but the human voice is in a different league from everything else. It's something we uniquely have control of and for those few that do not, what can one say ?
Sometimes we just need to be honest and say "this is one area that you can't travel ~ publicly." It's not telling someone not to sing.
Not that this applies to Nifer. We don't know that yet.
 

grimtraveller

If only for a moment.....
Whether you are serious or just having a laugh
There's the rub. If one is just having a laugh, then who cares ?
But one has to seriously question why it is important to know what others think of one's voice or songs or playing or whatever, if one is just having a laugh.
So, in my opinion, there's more going on than just having a laugh, even to a hobbyist.
There are singers and bands who had hits when they couldnt sing or play a note
How many of them ? There are definite and good reasons why that was the case. For example, Telly Savallas with "If" ~ I remember when it was no.1 in England. He was a sexy heartthrob and at the time "Kojak" was huge. Did he have another no.1 ? No, because Starsky & Hutch became the sexy American cop on TV going concern. Starsky & Hutch's emergence tells you what lots of people thought of Telly's voice.

John Otway and Jilted John are interesting choices. Both came on the back of punk at a time when a new way of singing spearheaded by the likes of Johnny Rotten had gained traction and though the musical cognoscenti of the times lambasted the style, it was clear the overwhelming majority of punk singers could sing. You can clearly hear that John Otway can sing though I don't consider him as 'punk'. He was around long before that, but going nowhere. He's off the wall, sure, and sings in that sub~Cockney twang but in parts of the song he's got a good voice. Willy Barrett's guitar parts are also clearly accentuating what Otway is doing so the voice is a crucial element in the song.

Graham Fellows {Jilted John} only wrote a couple of songs and the example you've given here is obviously a novelty song that works because of the punky setting. He hasn't got a great voice by any stretch of the imagination. He's pitchy here and there ~ but he can sing.

In this example, Yoko Ono was being kind of lazy with her "singing". A lot of the time she was just, as an old principal of mine used to say, a "noisemaker." In an avant garde setting such as the one here with Elephant's memory, it kind of works because the instruments are also playing in an edgy, off kilter way. Also, she wasn't interested on working on her singing because unlike her husband, she wasn't really into making music. She did it because of him. Interestingly, the parts of the song that she sounds caring and confident in are the avant garde screeches because as a singer, that was her element. It didn't need the discipline of having to emote and stay in tune with strength. Artistically, I've often found her to be a taker not a giver. It's like she demands the audience's attention but won't make the effort to meet them half way. John tried to be that in his early Yoko period but it just wasn't him.
(at first)
Two very important words. Many singers may not have been much cop at first. But implicit in those two words is the notion that they got better.
They simply found a niche and went for it and without the record companies help
Record companies wanted to sell records and make money. Even though some of the young execs were artistically inclined {and it's a good thing they were} at the end of the day acts that didn't make money got canned. So companies in general, for the most part, went with what sold well, regardless of the merits of the content. Fortunately, there was a healthy balance between good stuff that got put out and sales because music buyers back then liked what they liked. And bought it.
The singers that found their niche and made a career of it that honestly could not sing were as rare as hen's teeth.
You may even develop a great voice yet
With plenty of work.
don't take yourself too seriously and try and be something you are not.
I agree and I disagree.
I think one should take oneself seriously in certain endeavours.
But I agree with not being something one is not. Nifer may or may not be a singer. Time and lots of effort is going to determine that.
You will fit in somewhere
No one should argue with that. However, the where is important.
Nifer, what do you want to do as far as music goes ?
 

CrowsofFritz

Flamingo!
Grim, show Nifer how its done. Sing a few lines ON Vocaroo. Its not possible to sound right.
Oh, I never got this. Whenever someone critiques someone else, there is one who says, “well why don’t YOU do it for us all to critique?”

That makes no sense. The critic can sound even worse, and it still wouldn’t matter. The performance of the critic isn’t going to change the validity of the point the critic made.

Also, vocaroo has bad quality, yes, but it doesn’t change the pitch of someone.
 
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