Reparations

Yes/No/Needs further study?


  • Total voters
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Ouch. Ok. I made wisecrack about your colorful description and you flew off the handle. *Again*. You made your point, I think. Anything else?

It's not my colorful description. It is common nomenclature. It's a thing. Educate yourself on fairly common parlance before making a stupid wisecrack intended to paint someone as using racist language. 'Cause you and I both know that is what you were doing, and are still doing.

If my point was not clear, you have more thinking to do. And since we're on the subject, no conservative which you have claimed yourself to be would ever make wisecracks in defense of a Marxist. They might first research a little, look the person/Marxist up to understand what they were talking about before opening their ignorant gob....

And I mean that in the nicest way possible. Forgive if my bedside manner is less than sensitive to stupidity and ill intent.
 
If there is a third choice, I'd choose David McCallum, better known as Ducky.

I don't know that much about it, but ive seen some things on Denzel Washington which were pretty righteous. Mentoring type things. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, heart in the right place. Bob Marley said, emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds. Pretty sound advice with which a lot of us could benefit, regardless of ethnicity and race.

Thomas Sowell. Now that guy, sober, highly intelligent.
 
I don't know that much about it, but ive seen some things on Denzel Washington which were pretty righteous. Mentoring type things. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, heart in the right place. Bob Marley said, emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds. Pretty sound advice with which a lot of us could benefit, regardless of ethnicity and race.

Thomas Sowell. Now that guy, sober, highly intelligent.
I apologize. I mistakenly thought you were referring to two "I Spy" movies or TV series.
 
No, someone who though he posts on what could be considered controversial topics, insists he doesn't want to get involved and therefore will go unmentioned, suggested we discuss role models. I'm assuming given the topic at hand, role models who are black. I'm suggesting possibly Denzel Washington, or definitely Thomas Sowell.
 
Great We'll leave taxpayers out. You just now need to decide who pays
Well, I don't believe in reparations anyway, not in the way they were being mooted in the situation that gave rise to this thread. But it's a truth, once the govt gets your taxes, you have as much say in how that money is spent as you do in where a down-and-out sleeps next Thursday.
I haven't a clue who I really am
I know who I am, but it's not particularly important to me or to put it another way, there are many more important things to me.
I call myself English, but then we have this second more vague nationality of British
I'm the same. I have another layer to my identity in that my parents were Nigerian, but I'm English {not many Black people admit to that} and also British. Now, British is really vague. Few Welsh people or Scottish people think of themselves as British before being Welsh or Scottish, despite the result of the 2014 Scottish referendum. Northern Ireland is a slightly different affair.
The conclusion was that the pre second world war definition of who the British are is now blown away. Today's British are a totally different mix
Yep.
Having been born here, I've long understood why so many people had that pre-WWII definition, but it always struck me as illogical, once we learned about the history of these isles.
I remember the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics. It was a brilliant walk through how Britain had undergone changes since the industrial revolution. I think Danny Boyle did a magnificent job showing how this influential little island had gone through its changes, especially after WWII. What I found really interesting, and not many picked up on this, were the number of mixed couples and mixed race families in that little section he did on the changing nature of British life.
This has been a mongrel nation {in the nicest sense of that word} for most of its recorded existence.
The point was that compensation is not appropriate for any ethnic group
I get that. I agree with you for the most part. But there are some situations where it may be more clear-cut than others. For example, a place like Zimbabwe where there was a clear issue of land being taken and a population being shat upon, once independence came, reparations were not a bad idea, in and of themselves. One could argue that the Tamil people of Sri Lanka and some of the deliberately downtrodden caste groups in India have at least an argument in their favour for reparations. We might regard them as the same people as the others in their country, but that isn't the case in those countries. And even thinking about reparations is a colossal admission of a wrong that one recognizes and that could have been altered at some point and wasn't.
It can't really work in an American or British situation because as hard as it sometimes can be to get on in these societies for someone Black, it's by no means impossible or out of reach.
Empires come, empires go. That's always been the way
I agree. Humans can be shitbags. The very principle of an empire stinks. They are never voluntary. Hitler wanted his own empire. He thought Britain was fascinating, this tiny little island, smacking up half the world.
You know what really ended the British Empire ? WWII and the realization that we'd spent 6 years and so many lives stopping Hitler from having what we'd had for centuries.....The empire became impossible to justify, and that wasn't lost on the Indians and the Kenyans.....
Australians want to ditch the British monarchy, and remove our union flag from the corner of their own flag
And yet recently {1999}, when they had a referendum on it, they chose to maintain the status quo. There was a 95% voter turnout.
Sudan freed themselves of the wicked British Empire. They are currently killing each other. Civil war refugees fleeing Sudan. Where do they seek safety? - England
Ah, yes, but {there's always a but} there are a sizeable number of Sudanese people in England. Why go to Sweden or Germany or Denmark or Turkey when there's at least some chance of initial kinship in England.
And let's face it, one of the legacies of the British Empire was a turning Britainwards, of a whole slew of people that would never have wanted to settle here had Britain not shoved its oar into their affairs and taken over !
Be careful what you sign !! :cry:
Talk of reparations is just nonsense, spouted by lunatics.
I don't think it's nonsense in and of itself. It's an attempt to try to put right a historical wrong, the effects of which, linger on today, even where people aren't trying to have it linger.
But it's not the answer because it is impossible to quantify. Who would do the actual paying ? Who would be the recipients ? Where does the line get drawn and how far back does one go ?
One of my major problems with reparations in the way they have been suggested is that I suspect that the underlying motivation is vengeance, not justice.
There are scenarios in which reparations could possibly work. Among native Americans, Canadians and Aborigines for example. And it wouldn't necessarily be in the form of a cash handout. The matter is a highly nuanced one. It should have worked for the benefit of the people of Zimbabwe after independence. It should have worked in South Africa, all things being equal. But what consideration of reparations really shows is that inequality is an attitude that translates into action, and there's always people suffering due to that action. It's not just a White to Black thing, it exists within every group too.
 
Not that I am justifying anything, although I will probably be accused as such. There is a concept I am not totally familiar with, but have ran across....we run across things, given the net and such. It's the concept of, The Myth of the Noble Savage. It goes something like....

Before the white man came to the Americas, the natives or American Indians if you will were living a life harmonious with nature, and one another. The Noble Savage. In fact, it is a myth. They warred, they conquered one another, brutally. The taking of women, enslavement. They just did it with sticks and stones. Bones, antlers, fire, whatever got it done. The white Europeans came, and they were no more the Noble Savage than the lot who were already here, they just had steel, and gunpowder....textiles, the fucking wheel. Bastards!

It's not justification, it illustrates that history is messy. Remember back when Mel Gibson caught all that grief for making the movie Apocolypto? Really good movie, btw. This was after he made the movie The Passion(of the Christ), which was also criticised. In part, as far as Apocolypto, supposedly it was because of all of the what was considered graphic violence. I think it was banned in some areas, as far as I understand it because it was considered racist. In the movie the Mayans would raid villages, murdering a lot of the women who were not useful to them, taking the men as captives, leaving the children in the jungle to fend for themselves. The men were ceremonially sacrificed, hearts cut out, offered to the gods. Is the movie historically accurate? Well, I don't know, but it is a historical fact that these things did occur. Possibly the Aztecs rather than the Mayans. But interestingly, at the end of the movie one of the captives who had escaped was being chased by the captors, out onto a beach. There, just off shore was something they had never seen, the chase ending for both captive and captors. Awe struck. The sails of ships, the white Europeans. Turn the page, from one brutality to the next. History is messy.
 
It is interesting to note, and I have been accused of making the shit up in the past, but it is true.

We all know about the American Indian of the Great Plains. Famed horsemen, horse culture. These guys were badass. Their entire culture revolved and depended on the horse. The fact of the matter, before Europeans there were no horses in the Americas. None. For some, the Comanche for instance, probably the most powerful of them all, they used those horses for great power, for war, brutality, and conquest. They had a good run, but as history would have it, they were bettered at the game.
 
History is messy.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t recall seeing a single reply on this thread where someone believes that direct cash reparations should be done, so I think it’s likely we all mostly agree. (Weird)…

Speaking for myself, I mentioned some indirect reparations that I think are appropriate. I’m wondering if you agree or disagree. We know (at least I hope we all know) that segregation and redlining has affected today’s black people. There is generational wealth that has not been passed down along with less home ownership, and educational opportunities have not been equal. People are less likely to go to college if their parents haven’t etc. This is where I think something can be done that is fair, appropriate, and realistic.

I feel strongly that at a minimum there should be a program to provide very low interest loans for housing and education for black families, as long as they have lineage in this country prior to the civil rights era.

We can say history is messy, but that won’t solve anything. It just serves to justify the status quo.
 
Now see your last sentence/paragraph, it assumes something that defies historical record, and the human condition. Ambition, even at the cost of the worst that humanity has to offer. It is absolutely not exclusive to any creed, race, what have you. We can accept and reckon with the status quo, but it will not change the reality of the past, of history. There are few truly innocent parties. To believe so is a myth, a lie. To fully reckon with the perceived ills from both the present and the past, we must do so based on truths, ugly truths. We could have a very long discussion on the matter, hopefully honest, without bias...against truth, things it is perceived inappropriate to say. Messiness. Perhaps another day.

Oh man, the rest should be addressed piece by piece, so not easily sorted. Ask me one, I'll provide an opinion. All I know, despite segregation, there was upward mobility in the black community in the past, here in America. Family structure, it is a fact that a stable to parent household will result in a better outcome for success for offspring. What happened? Of course it is a matter of opinion, but the politics of low expectations lifts nobody up. I can't remember the exact quote, but LBJ said something about pandering to the black vote, these n*ggers will be voting for us for the next hundred years. That's the truth, blame me for citing history of you will. Lying to people does nothing for them, particularly when it is self serving, politically, it only keeps them stuck in the hole in which they are in. Or a deeper hole. Im going to speak honestly, perhaps to my own detriment. I have long thought that the ills suffered within blacks in this country could truly only be remedied from within. But as recent history has illustrated, that is not what is happening. Nonsense such as white privilege. A message that is you can't make it as a black person on an even playing field. Lower expectations, lower test scores, lower interest rates, lower this and lower that, manipulation of the criminal justice system, on and on. These are not the things that contribute to a upwards and onwards society. Nobody benefits, the country does not benefit. The truth will set you free. More truth, even if it hurts.

I apologize if that didn't address your questions. Perhaps a follow up I will attempt to do better.
 
Lies, we have to stop the lies. It helps no one.

I mentioned movies earlier. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong. From what I understand there was a movie released recently that depicted a tribe of women warriors in Africa. Fighting the good fight, against the white devil or whatever. Awesomeness, something the black community could take pride in. It was a lie, a lie told to black people made by a black director/producer. The facts? That tribe of women warriors was instrumental in the slave trade. These "hero" women warriors who the producers are using as an example to uplift blacks raided villages and captured those who were later sold into slavery. How the hell can we begin to have an honest discussion with that kind of bullshit going on? Things are going backwards, fueled by incendiary distortions, and lies.

There needs to be a discussion based on truth for hope of forward progress.
 
You could remove slavery from the discussion and only focus on what is happening to people currently alive. There’s still socioeconomic differences based on things that happened even after the civil rights legislation, such as differences of treatment in the justice system between blacks and whites, to name one example. Let alone things that happened prior.
 
You could remove slavery from the discussion and only focus on what is happening to people currently alive.
Apparently not:
as long as they have lineage in this country prior to the civil rights era.
Sounds like the solution is actually very history-based.

My take on the issue is that
I feel strongly that at a minimum there should be a program to provide very low interest loans for housing and education for black families, as long as they have lineage in this country prior to the civil rights era.
should not be applied only to blacks. Sure, there is a lot of social poverty (is this even politically correct?) among Blacks descended from slavery, but instead of doing DNA tests we might as well extend those benefits to anyone whose parent(s) make less than [name an amount] a year.
 
Apparently not:

Sounds like the solution is actually very history-based.
Not really the point. Mick appears to be saying that the history of slavery is full of complexity and lies. So I’m saying, ok then remove that from the equation and limit the scope to the mistreatment of black people in more recent history; Jim Crow, redlining, etc. You’re still left with socioeconomic differences today from state-sponsored racism.
My take on the issue is that

should not be applied only to blacks. Sure, there is a lot of social poverty (is this even politically correct?) among Blacks descended from slavery, but instead of doing DNA tests we might as well extend those benefits to anyone whose parent(s) make less than [name an amount] a year.
Why?
 
I know I had white privilege when I backed into the Sheriffs squad car during the traffic stop. I came back from Colorado to the N.E. in 1991. I was sending
out resumes and getting 0 response. I had the experience and the qualifications? I finally changed my name on the resumes from Jerome to Jerry and got calls?
 
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