Recording orchestra in a large venue?

[Patricialyptica]

Hi, could anyone tell me what's a good place to position microphones when recording a live orchestral performance in a medium sized (500-ish capacity) venue? And are Apex 435's with a Tascam US-122 alright enough? I'm not looking for professional quality but just something decent that will capture a wide range of pitches, colours and timbres. Thanks =)

 

[Massive Master]

If there's a grid system or something you can support from, I tend to try to get more of the conductor's perspective than the audience with a simple pair -

Hang an X-Y pair right over the conductor's position pointed at the first row of violins (L) and cellos (R) around 15 feet high.

Simple, effective, etc.

Straight down is normally fine (upstage/downstage). If you point them upstage even a little, the brass tends to take over.

If you space the pair 6 feet or so and shoot them STRAIGHT down at the stage, it can sound very nice, but pretty unrealistic with the imaging. The XY (IMO) is a better option - Less "wide" but much more focused and realistic.

 

[Patricialyptica]

Would positioning them somewhere between the first row of the audience and the curtain of the stage get an ok sound? The conductor's really snappy and I don't want him biting my head off for getting in the way. Or near in the stage wings? A bit more brass/timpani/double bass is actually what I'm looking for.

 

[bigtoe]

Would positioning them somewhere between the first row of the audience and the curtain of the stage get an ok sound? The conductor's really snappy and I don't want him biting my head off for getting in the way. Or near in the stage wings? A bit more brass/timpani/double bass is actually what I'm looking for.

try raising your stand and point the mics over the strings then...usually a good choice anyway...buncha overinflated egos up there.

Mike
ex- trombone, tuba and king of the "spit-valve to the woodwind section" move

 

[Massive Master]

That could work well depending on the room, of course - I'd still try to keep the plane of the mics in line with those strings... They'll get lost very easily...

Is this going to be during a live performance or do you actually have so room to play around?

 

[Patricialyptica]

Live performance. And I believe they'll have... what're they called? The soundboards that go way up high and then lean forward a bit to deflect the sound outwards? I think they'll have those behind the ensemble.

 

[Massive Master]

"Shells" they called for the most part.

Just curious on the live thing... I'm lucky to have a grid system with most orchestras I record - Keeps the mics out of sight for the most part.

They (the musicians, the venue, etc.) get a little goofy when there are 12' mic booms on the stage...

 

[DavidK]

"They (the musicians, the venue, etc.) get a little goofy when there are 12' mic booms on the stage...

If its an American orchestra they might refuse to play. Orchestra players are a whiny bunch, the grid is the best way.

I'm a pro symphony player. If the mics arent in front of the strings, they wont be on the recording.

I am assuming by your ( Patricias) spelling of colour that this isnt an American gig, but you pretty much have to hang the mics. I doubt anywhere will let you put them onstage or on stands in the audience.

 

[bigtoe]

i guess i've had different experiences - i've done a lot of recordings where i'd go in and set up in front of stage. i've never hung except if there were already mics in place when i walked in.

if i deemed it necessary for the sound - I'd sometimes block off the first two rows, with permission of the stage manager and orchestra liaison, of course. sometimes i'd tape off a group of seats 3 or 4 rows back. Sometimes these mic placements would be one's my boss had used before so they knew what to expect, but usually they were cool about it if it was a virgin flight.

same would go when i assisted at an NPR affilate with a remote truck (David -WKSU! maybe i once recorded ya...)

if they're paying for ya to do the gig - they gotta let you do it. i have found they usually do with not much communication...you should have a nice stand and keep your cabling tidy. oh, and don't be intimidated by 'em, just be polite and understanding but firm. i've never been asked to change mic position.

also - on the string horn balance - the age/quality of the orchestra has a lot to do with success there. Some of the youth orchestras I've done had insanely quiet horn/wind sections...and sometimes thankfully!

peace all!

Mike

 

[Han]

Follow John Scrip's advice, the place is allright, but consider an ORTF placement, which will give a more realistic stereo image. I've never liked the image of XY.

ORTF is capsules 17cm apart with a 110 deg. angle.

Peace, Han

 

[Patricialyptica]

ALRIGHT!!! Ok is this layout completely stupid?? 3-4 pencil mics spread out equally across the ground maybe a foot away from the forestage, then a PZM stuck behind the shell? I like the idea of hanging the mic's from the ceiling but the conductor is super intimidating and I really don't wanna bother him about that, he already did me a huge favour by permitting me to record it.

 

[Patricialyptica]

Oh and will my Tascam interface get fried if I hook up an 8-channel mixer and then the mics? I have no idea what I'm doing.

 

[Massive Master]

Follow John Scrip's advice, the place is allright, but consider an ORTF placement...

Foolish of me - That was just "late night" talking. I agree totally with the ORTF for this also (dunno what I was thinking).

 

[Alexbt]

I'm going to have to disagree with John and everyone else who wants to simply close mic an orchestra. And I don't think you'll get a good sound where the conductor is. You need to go back further in the room.

This applies to bands, orchestras, choirs, classical singers, etc.

In any case, I would believe the conductor is doing something terribly wrong if the strings are getting lost. Of course, there's always you, the engineer, who may want more out of a section than the conductor intends, which I feel defeats the point.

My choral conductor no longer records with our former recording engineer because he apparently refused to put the mics in the audience. We presently get recordings from the house ceiling mounted condensers because it sounds just the same.

But anyways, yeah. Put the two mics as far back as you like. No real need to hook up a mixer unless you want to use more than two mics, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

[dgatwood]

I'm going to have to disagree with John and everyone else who wants to simply close mic an orchestra. And I don't think you'll get a good sound where the conductor is. You need to go back further in the room.

This applies to bands, orchestras, choirs, classical singers, etc.

In any case, I would believe the conductor is doing something terribly wrong if the strings are getting lost. Of course, there's always you, the engineer, who may want more out of a section than the conductor intends, which I feel defeats the point.

My choral conductor no longer records with our former recording engineer because he apparently refused to put the mics in the audience. We presently get recordings from the house ceiling mounted condensers because it sounds just the same.

But anyways, yeah. Put the two mics as far back as you like. No real need to hook up a mixer unless you want to use more than two mics, but I don't think that's necessary.

I totally agree. I've always heard concerts miked from the audience, and have always miked concerts from the audience when I've recorded them, so I know what it sounds like. This week, for the first time, I heard a recording done of our wind ensemble (with a VP-88 M-S condenser) from exactly where you suggest. We got really bad "hot-spotting". Certain instruments were exaggerated, others were barely audible. I've never heard a band where the clarinets were consistently louder than the trombones before I heard that recording. We had 11 trombones on that concert....

If you put mics overhead, aim them carefully and put a second pair out in the audience so that if you don't like the overhead sound, you'll have another choice. With mics in the audience, no one can ever say that the recording didn't capture the performance accurately....

 

[BigRay]

1 meter spaced omnis , supported by flanking cards.

 

[DavidK]

same would go when i assisted at an NPR affilate with a remote truck (David -WKSU! maybe i once recorded ya...)



Mike

Yes, been recorded by WKSU, nice to see a local boy around here Where is your studio? I saw one in the paper recently in Russell I think.