Recommend an SDC - flat response - high SPL - stereo pair - weather proof

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Shadow_7

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I've out grown my Avenson STO-2's (or would like to anyway).

I've tried Shure SM-81's and they're not quite the sound I'm after. And it's proving far easier to wind proof the Avensons on the cheap than the Shures.

What I'm looking for is under $1,000 (USD). Flat frequency response (What you hear is what you get). Cardioid pattern since I'll be joining it with a camcorder at a distance. High SPL since I'll be recording large brass bands with drumlines (indoors and outdoors). Low self noise since I'll also be recording SMALL brass bands from the same distance. And at a minimum wind proof, preferably heat, humidity, and maybe even rain proof. And they must sound good on brass instruments and drums outdoors.

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Pros and Cons of what I have.

Avenson STO-2's
-Pro: They sound true to the source.
-Pro: They are relatively immune to wind with lavalier wind foam and rycote wind jammer. But not completely immune.
-Pro: They handle high SPLs well.
-Con: They lack a little low end presence (Tuba gets a bit muffled)
-Con: They have high self noise
-Con: They're OMNI patterned so not much of a stereo image without proximity and greater than 90 degree orientation.

Shure SM-81's
-Pro: low self noise and high gain
-Pro: They sound good and have a good stereo image.
-Pro: They come with a windscreen.
-Pro: They're built like tanks.
-Con: There seems to be some mild distortions at the higher SPLs. Or maybe it's just some brightness / harshness that I'm just not used to.
-Con: They're not well matched as a pair. Although okay with distance.
-Con: The stock windscreen is useless in winds > 10mph +/- 7 mph.
-Con: even with the stock windscreen and homemade fake fur socks over the mics they just can't take significant winds. Winds which are fairly mild relative to these parts have the capsule clicking / bottoming out, where the Avensons just get a low end rumble effect.

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At the moment I've thought about AT 4041's, Beyer MC930's, Crown Sass-P MK II, even NT5's. But I"m looking at solving current issues and not creating new ones. Current issues being self noise, polar pattern, weather immunity, better low end.

The Shures address some of those issues, but are still not quite what I'm after. The recordings I've made so far (indoors) are good, but don't quite sit well with me. They bug me for some reason. Sure the self noise is better, the stereo image is better, the low end is better, but I'm just not liking it for some reason. Too bright? To brittle? I can't quite put my finger on it yet. I'm looking for something a little more mello, but detailed. I'm basically wanting my Avensons with lower self noise and a cardioid pattern. And a better windscreen.

In all likelyhood I'll need to sell my current two pairs to pay for the next step, so they HAVE TO BE better. Ideally a pair of ribbons would work for my needs, but those are probably the worst option for travel and outdoors, so don't bother recommending any of those. Unless there's some bulletproof windscreen on the cheap that I don't know about. So $1,000 for BOTH mics (Total) and hopefully wind proofing included. I really don't want to buy $700 rycotes zeppelins x2, I'd rather DIY. But if I can get something acceptable for $100-ish(for both) like I did with the Avensons, that's good enough.

Thoughts?
 
Well, wind immunity comes with an omni pattern, that's a fact of physics. Weather immunity comes with a RF condenser, not a DC condenser so much.

I've never used or even seen them, but I'd be asking about Sennheiser MKH800 myself, or the MKH8000 series omni and cardioids.

Con is they are way overbudget . . .
 
I'm targeting a pair of 8040's as the long term goal. But it's just not in the budget for another year (more likely two) or more. I've thought about some LDCs too, but proper windscreens for a pair of sE Titans might be a little eccentric.

For now my SM81s are the indoor mics and the Avensons STO-2's are the outdoor mics. (Should be the other way around IMO, but functionally NOT).

So, what are the RF options in cardioid?
 
Some progress with the SM-81's. I changed the roll off to the middle setting (said to clear some things up on sources that sound muddy). I enabled the -10dB pad (to better handle higher SPLs). And I prevented any horizontal folds in my DIY fake fur socks when tucking up the slack and securing. Much improved for wind proofing, but not immune yet.

Still an occasional click, but all that might just be that the wind is not quite as strong as it was on my last test. Still pretty strong relative to most regions, but fairly mild relative to THIS region. I'm fairly confident that the beefier wind screens can take care of most of the rest. Although it's somewhat alarming that if it doesn't, I could get relatively unusable results.

Fortunately I build my DIY furs with enough slack to handle the beefier foams. Now to find a source to acquire those foams locally. The click is unacceptable and the pre-click rumble is annoying. Although I've regained a little confidence that it can be dealt with to an acceptable degree under most conditions.

I'm ultimately looking for higher end mics, if only in results. I'm cheap like my dad, but not THAT cheap. Or at least I consciously try not to be.
 
You really don't want to engage the pad unless you are recording a high-SPL source because it will degrade SNR.

I am not sure what your clicks are, but if they are wind-related, it could be the diaphragm smacking the backplate. The pad cannot fix that problem . . .
 
I record high SPL groups (some of the time). And yeah, I noticed a mildly higher noise floor with the pad. Also bear in mind that my former set are Avenson STO-2's, which are still noisier than these with the pad enabled. I'm hoping to overcome certain spots on my last session that seemed to mildly distort. Like part of the mic was sympathetically vibrating with the sound source. Nothing too terrible, more like sibilance, but the source is a brass ensemble, not a singer.

The click is most likely the plate. Without the stock foams, it's 100% of the time even in mild winds (< 1 mph). With the stock foams, it's more like 60% of the time in mild winds (< 10 mph). That's for the clicks, there's pretty much a wind rumble regardless of my current attempts. With the fake fur, I get an occasional click with less mild winds (< 30 mph), assuming I avoid folds with horizontal exposure. Otherwise it's only mildly better than the stock wind foams. I can live with the rumble. The clicks are not an option. Just one pretty much ruins the recording for me.

I've thought about switching to a Beyer MC930 or Crown Sass-P MK II. Although I don't know if either of those would be any better. And if I can get by with just $60 worth of beefier foams ($30 x2), that'd work better for me. Ultimately I do want 8040's, but I'm trying not to be too vested in gear at the moment. I need to keep some resources available to add HD video to my kit.
 
I guess I'm looking at getting rid of one of my pairs soon. The camcorder I'm looking at getting comes out next month. But I'm a bit torn on which to get rid of.

Avenson STO-2's
- Omni, which makes it hard to screw up mic placement much
- Handles high SPLs well (trusted mics)
- Sounds great in proximity, a little too noisey from a distance or with a small / soft group
- Handles wind well, especially with beefy windscreens
- Doesn't seem to suffer much from handling noise
- Doesn't seem to mind proximity, in fact thrives on it
- Subject to interference, but so far only my backyard seems to trigger that.

Shure SM-81's
- Cardioid, which makes mic placement a little more thought out OR ELSE
- May not handle high SPLs well, not really liking what I'm hearing when getting close to that challenge
- A little too hot gain wise in proximity, significantly less so at a distance
- Doesn't handle wind well, even if I pop for the beefy windscreens, I don't know if that's enough / safe enough
- Suffers from handling noise, even a metal loop hitting the mic stand translates significantly
- Proximity can really toy with the balance of a group
- Relatively immune to interference (backyard has no effect on them) and other environmental specs (except wind)

They're both good mics.

Basically for the STO-2's, I don't like the noise floor, want a little better low end, slightly worried about the interference thing, but not all that applicable in my current usage.

And for the SM-81's, I don't like the SPL limit, and worry about the wind thing since even one click basically ruins the whole set. Otherwise better suited (in spec) than my STO-2's. But I live in a very windy region. And my STO-2's are manufactured locally which is kind of cool. Although I bought mine used from Nebraska.

I feel that the SM-81's might be a little too problematic (or at least potentially so) for how I'll be using them. And they will likely cost another $200 to configure them towards those ends. Beefier windscreens, shock mounts, beefier stereo bar. And I think they sound slightly harsher than the STO-2's which has been gnawing at me. I so want to love them. But since they're all so closely related I can't justify keeping both pairs (yet).

Recommendations? Thoughts?
 
The differences you are describing are mostly the difference between any omni and cardioid mic. What about selling both pairs and buying a pair of KSM141s?
 
I'm worried that anything other than the STO-2's means an extra $200 towards extras. Shock mounts, windscreens, stereo bar. And dumping one pair is to get the money for better video gear, not swap it for other audio gear. It'd be nice to have a different job to allow me to keep it all AND do that other stuff. But even that wont have the short term benefit I'm looking for.

If I were to swap audio components, I've been eying the Crown Sass-P MK II or Beyer MC930's. Which are right near the cash out value of both pairs. I'm still targeting (long term) the MKH 8040's, although if these issues are solely polar pattern related, I might be better served targeting the 8020's. Which is more or less on the five year plan along with a red scarlet.

Weren't the KSM141's MORE power hungry than the STO-2's? I'm still using a field recorder, it's just too convenient to go anywhere at anytime with one trip. Which came in handy this past saturday where access to the interior wasn't properly handled, so the event took place outside, meaning no plugs, batteries only. As is / will be the case for 75% of what I do.
 
Shadow_7 said:
I'm worried that anything other than the STO-2's means an extra $200 towards extras. Shock mounts, windscreens, stereo bar. And dumping one pair is to get the money for better video gear, not swap it for other audio gear. It'd be nice to have a different job to allow me to keep it all AND do that other stuff. But even that wont have the short term benefit I'm looking for.

If I were to swap audio components, I've been eying the Crown Sass-P MK II or Beyer MC930's. Which are right near the cash out value of both pairs. I'm still targeting (long term) the MKH 8040's, although if these issues are solely polar pattern related, I might be better served targeting the 8020's. Which is more or less on the five year plan along with a red scarlet.

Weren't the KSM141's MORE power hungry than the STO-2's? I'm still using a field recorder, it's just too convenient to go anywhere at anytime with one trip. Which came in handy this past saturday where access to the interior wasn't properly handled, so the event took place outside, meaning no plugs, batteries only. As is / will be the case for 75% of what I do.
Click to expand...

I think they are both 5mA?

Anyway, from what I hear the MC930 should sound better than SM81, but it's still cardioid. You are always going to need the heavy windscreen gear with a cardioid. The advantage of KSM141 is it's switchable, so it will be far less sensitive to wind noise in omni, and switchable back to cardioid for inside halls. It has a much larger diaphragm and thus less noise than the Avenson. From my own measurement, I can affirm its SPL handling of at least 135dBSPL--that's without its internal pad switched on.

I don't think you'll ever be happy without polar pattern choices; there are some cheaper options than KSM141, but having the mechanical pattern switch on the mic is awfully handy.
 
So far I have been very happy with the sound quality of the Peluso SD mics. They always seem to have a pretty true sound, and I think they far exceed their price to performance ratio. The durability on them is good, they seem buiult very well. They do offer 3 position HPF's, and 3 position pads. Price wise they hit about $625 a pair, and their are various capsule options for different patterns. As far as weatherproofing they don't seem to be really any different in any way that I can tell from many other studio small diaphragm condensors. No better, no worse. One nice thing is that the stereo pairs are hand matched, and they come in a case with both shockmounts, hard mounts, windscreens, and storage for 6 extra capsules. I beleive the capsules are about $180 a pair for the omni's. By default they come with the cardiods, but can be ordered for the same price with any of the sets of capsules. I recently sold a pair of them to a video company that does a lot of live filming of musical acts. So far they have told me that they absolutely love them for their sound quality and depth of field. Basically, everything always just sounds good without any real effort.

The Shure KSM's listed above are also a great choice in my opinion. They are built well, and always seem to sound pretty good. A lot of people here like the AT's as well, but I have not used them all that much so I can not really offer any insight about them. The only problem I see with the Shure's is that getting a "matched" pair is not always all that easy with Shure, but the KSM's especially always seem to be pretty close on their own.
 
Hmmm. I never knew the KSM141's were multi-patterned. I was looking at a pair of AT4041SP's. When I was looking at the 81's. The 81's offered a better deal used at the time. The 81's are fairly matched sound wise, but one is a little hotter dB wise than the other. More so in proximity, less so at a distance.

My new found love for the STO-2's was because I used the DIY fake fur socks I made for the 81's on the STO's. And with that sort of wind hardening (in addition to windtech 2114's and rycote lavalier windjammers) it seems like the noise floor issues previously noticeable for the STO-2's is almost as good as the 81's now. Although I had a little more proximity than I probably would have normally. And slightly hotter gain. But that never seemed to relegate the noise floor that much before.

The 81's do seem to have a little more clarity overall. But the STO-2's seem to offer some natural compression so there's no surprises dB wise with gain levels. Plus they're only sold as matched pairs, which might have a lot to do with it. They are so similar, but at the same time, so different. I guess I'll make some DIY fake fur socks for the STO-2's and see where that takes me. It's not like I bought a square yard or anything and only used a single piece (10%) for both 81's, which I originally cut for just one mic. It was so bonehead easy to do too. Unfortunately the storm I wanted to record with them passed over in 15 to 30 minutes and I didn't quite have them done by then. Baring the 5 month drought that followed. (or something like that)
 
I own many of the mics you mentioned:

Avensons
MC930's
Crown SASS

If you are recording from a distance, I would think you would want to stick with omnis. I like the Avensons and I don't have an issue with noise, but I don't record quiet music much.

Hard to say about the SASS. It's not always usable, but when it works it's nice. You can find them used for $300-$400.

The Beyers are quiet and detailed. I'm just not in to cardioid mics usually.

I picked up a Sennheiser MKH30 (fig 8) and use it with one of my Avensons for Mid-Side (omni mid obviously) and that can sound REALLY nice. That's also a single-point easy-to-move-around rig that should fit into a nice wind-sock/Rycote device. Not a cheap mic, but I got one used for under $1k.

I've also used both Avensons on a Jecklin disc with nice results.
 
Well it's nice to know I'm not the only one who things the STO-2's sound good. I don't normally record soft groups either. But sometimes I'm far enough away from a purely acoustic groups to be the rough equivalent. I just always thought that cardioid would be better since I'm only/mostly recording on one side of the mic anyway. It is starting to sound more like the KSM141's might be better suited all around.

In the meantime I started work on my STO-2 windscreens. I guess it's never dawned on me just how big a square yard of fake fur is. I think she actually gave me a yard and a half. I just continued cutting the strip I started with the 81's and after making the STO-2 cuts, I've still got 50% of that strip left. Plus a full square yard left. I've been thinking about some sort of frisbee rain cover with fake fur enclosure to provide both rain protection and a windscreen type enclosure. A lot more feasible with the STO's than the 81's since I don't think they make frisbees that big. Not that I couldn't just use a tupperware lid, but I was hoping for the more heavy duty build and full lip of a frisbee to aid whatever under structure I found As I try to find that hot glue gun that was last seen three moves and over a decade ago.
 
Hmmm..... I got my fake furs going on the STO-2's. Just when I thought it was good enough, we had a particularly windy day so I put them to the test. And for the first time I was getting the same clicking I get on the SM-81's on the STO-2's. The fake fur isn't as long as I'd like so I've got 4 layers and even that isn't invulnerable. WindTech 2114's + Rycote Lavalier Windjammer + DIY small fur + DIY fur I originally made for the 81's. It's actually quite effective in modest winds. Just not todays.

I'm quite surprised at how little effect so much bulk has on the overall sound. I actually like it better to some degree, fewer distractions. And a warmer fuzzy in most conditions Armed with this new insight I'm gonna give the 81's one more shot with a triple layer fur (I have plenty) and see how that does with the stock foams. I'm tempted to get the bigger foams, but if this doesn't have a significant effect, it'd just be a waste of $60 plus shipping IMO.

There's not many outdoor sources right now. The freeway traffic seems louder than normal. And the crickets are quite few in number and volume this time of year. The birds are a bit too distant to get anything significant with the noise floor on the STO-2's. Not that it's that noticeable with the freeway traffic a few miles away that sounds as loud as a the A/C unit in the living room. But it is nice to capture the ambient sounds without too much rumble distraction. The freeway sound was so much quieter when gas was $4 a gallon. I'm liking what the 141's might offer, but I've got to get these working for me first. So I can see which to keep and which to sell.
 
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