Point-to-point wiring?

[Zona Mona]

Can anyone explain what point to point wiring is and why I would want it?

 

[Outlaws]

Can anyone explain what point to point wiring is and why I would want it?

The wire goes from Point A to Point B in the shortest path available. (they tend to be not cross one another either though, so it might go to a point, then take a nice and neat right hand turn to get to its destination without crossing another wire)

Is it worth the extra money? It depends IMO.

Better components would yield a more obvious quality difference, but at the same time, top of the line components usually (not always) go hand in hand with point-to-point wiring.

I honestly don't think if you took two amps, with the exact same parts and one was point-to-pont and the other had a mess of wires (within reason), that you could tell the difference, but its like anything - things that are stream lined tend to work better in the long run.

 

[Farview]

Point to point is a term normally used as the opposite of printed circuit boards. There is a sonic difference between the two. That is the main difference between the early JCM-800's (the 'good' ones) and the ones from the late 80's. The circuit didn't change but they went from p2p to circuit board and it changed the sound of the amps.

 

[heroics321]

point-to-point is also associated with being handmade... er... handwired. for the most part, when companies take the time to do this, things are done more correctly, and it adds a sort of extra quality control step in the amp-making process.

 

[spoonie g]

Point to point is a term normally used as the opposite of printed circuit boards. There is a sonic difference between the two. That is the main difference between the early JCM-800's (the 'good' ones) and the ones from the late 80's. The circuit didn't change but they went from p2p to circuit board and it changed the sound of the amps.

This is incorrect. Marshall stopped doing point to point wiring in 1972. The only advantage of having point to point witing is easier maintenance and resale snobbery.

 

[spoonie g]

....and the reason earlier jcm 800's (models 2203 and 2204) are more desirable is because they have an all-tube path, whereas the later models employed silicon diodes to create preamp distortion.

 

[SteveK]

Point to point is easier to work with on a repair level. My main gigging and recording amps are made by Andy Fuchs, and he uses circuit boards for some applications. These are not cheap amps, and personally, I don't think you could sit someone down, and in a blindfolded test, have them identify which amp is handwired, and which uses PCB construction. Nothing wrong with either method...just different.

 

[Farview]

This is incorrect. Marshall stopped doing point to point wiring in 1972. The only advantage of having point to point witing is easier maintenance and resale snobbery.

You are correct, but the earlier ones were not pcb's like the later ones with everything mounted to the same board. Stuff was mounted to the board but there were still wires all over the place. The point when it changed was when the inputs became horizontal. It was a couple years after that they added the silicone diode circuit.
The diode distortions ones were only the later channel switching heads. Marshall has a habit of changing the circuit before changing the name. The ones with the diodes are , for all intents and purposes, JCM 900s.
P2P wiring makes a difference in comparison with what will eventually happen. pcb's warp and crack under heat and stress.

 

[spoonie g]

You are correct, but the earlier ones were not pcb's like the later ones with everything mounted to the same board. Stuff was mounted to the board but there were still wires all over the place. The point when it changed was when the inputs became horizontal. It was a couple years after that they added the silicone diode circuit.
The diode distortions ones were only the later channel switching heads. Marshall has a habit of changing the circuit before changing the name. The ones with the diodes are , for all intents and purposes, JCM 900s.
P2P wiring makes a difference in comparison with what will eventually happen. pcb's warp and crack under heat and stress.

they were pcb's, but were eventually found to be undesirable because they had the tubes and (surprise) inputs mounted to the board as you said, but most importantly because of the fact that on the 2203 100-watt model, Marshall changed them tonally in the filtering and power supply structure. You can make a pcb without the tubes mounted to the board, and Marshall did so from 1973 till the later 800's you mention.

 

[spoonie g]

.....so we were both wrong.

 

[Farview]

I have been working on these things on and off for 25 years and I still get it all screwed up. I had a JCM 800 with 4 inputs and 6550's and another one with 2 inputs and EL34s around the same time. I really wish they would have named all the different ones something different. I'm too old for this crap.

 

[crazydoc]

As has been alluded, point to point is the mounting of components on a chassis, phenolic board, stand-offs, etc., and connecting the leads of the components with lengths of copper hook-up wire. This can be nice and neat, or a jumbly mess - it's still point to point.

This is opposed to printed circuit board mounting, where the components are mounted on a phenolic type board that has been coated with copper and then etched to leave lines of copper (traces) that connect the leads of the components.

In my limited experience, point to point has been used in older equipment, before the general use of pc boards, and is still used sometimes, mainly in circuits that are high voltage or high current such as power amps, where the pc traces might be more likely to carry insufficient current or be subject to accidental shorting of nearby traces.

PC boards are generally used where low voltages and currents are involved, and where circuit layout is critical to avoid spurious capacitance or inductance. In fact, pc traces can be used to advantage sometimes as part of the circuit:
http://elecdesign.com/Files/29/8651/Figure_01.gif
http://elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/8651/8651.html

I don't think you should make any decisions about the quality of gear on the basis of whether it uses point to point wiring or not.

 

[donkeystyle]

there's an interesting article obout pcb's versus hardwiring on the bogner website. it's an argument of why pcb's are at least as good as point to point or better.

http://www.bogneramplification.com/Pcboard.htm

i'm sure that some of that is sales pitch, but i don't care either way which one is better.

in my opinion a good amp is a good amp and from what i've heard bogner makes badass amps(using pcb's) and matchless makes badass amps(using point to point)

 

[punkin]

I thought point to point was more in line with the old school tube technology...a carry over from pre PCB days. I'm sitting here looking into the guts of my KWM-2A and the 50L1 amp thinking how in the hell could you PCB mount those big ass tubes. OK...off the subject a little...Tube sockets (especially the big ones) didn't fare well on PCBs. The socket to PCB could become intermittent...the heavy tubes, bulky hardware associated caused stress on the solder joints where the tube sockets met the PCB. A lot of the old gear I've got around here, the tube sockets are mounted to metal chassis or heavy phonelic boards.This (I thought) was where the desirability in continuing the point to point wiring. It's reliable. I can't really speak to the sonic qualities but back in the day, power supplies and tube supply requirement were much higher...several thousand volts and big amp draws...PCBs certainly couldn't support that either.

Oh come on!...don't bust my chops! I'm not saying what's better or worse. I'm just making a couple observations. I think that point to point wiring has some very legitimate reasons for still being done and I certainly didn't make any statements regarding sonic implications. Nothing to get worked up about...maybe a little food for thought.

I'm imagining PCB mounting a 4CX10000...it probably won't work very well though.

 

[boingoman]

Point-to-point
Gold-plated jacks
Class A
Solid top
Tube-based
Lo-carb
Beechwood aged
No-load


Buying anything on the basis of one feature is rarely wise.

 

[Light]

My main gigging and recording amps are made by Andy Fuchs,

That dude has GOT to change the font he uses for his logo. Great amp, but how many times have you been asked why you are playing a "Fucks" amp?


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Zona Mona]

Thanks everyone

 

[SteveK]

That dude has GOT to change the font he uses for his logo. Great amp, but how many times have you been asked why you are playing a "Fucks" amp?


Light

Actually the only two who have ever asked were my bass player and drummer. I don't know if a different font would really make a difference though...