Outside inspiration or isolation?

[miroslav]

This is kind of both a songwriting and recording/production question...so I posted it here.
I was wondering how other people got juiced for their own music efforts.

When you actually start to write and work out productions (not just when sitting around listening to music)...do you like to use a lot of other people's work as inspiration or do you prefer to shut off any outside influences and just go with your own unprejudiced inner vibe?

While I do listen to all kinds of music…when I get into my writing/production mode…I tend to avoid listening to anything other than what I am working on. I feel that at some point, you get past the superficial stuff you are hearing, and then the interesting stuff starts to surface…so I avoid poisoning my hearing with someone else’s music at that time for fear of pulling someone else’s stuff into my own without even realizing it.
I’ve often stopped at certain points and considered if I’m subconsciously “stealing” from some outside influences...though I do understand that it’s all been done before, so there’s always going to be some of that “it sounds just like…..” kind of thing, which isn’t always a bad thing to have as long as you aren’t actually copying something (without even realizing it).

 

[Monkey Allen]

I don't think about any of that stuff

 

[gecko zzed]

When you actually start to write and work out productions ...do you like to use a lot of other people's work as inspiration or do you prefer to shut off any outside influences and just go with your own unprejudiced inner vibe?

A lot of the time I think "how did they do that?" or "why does that sound like it does?" and see whether I can achieve similar. So in that sense, I am influenced by the outside world. However, even were I to try and avoid that, I can't forget what I know already. Simply avoiding listneing to other music does not prevent my brain from forgetting what it has already heard, so I think that shutting off outside influences is problematic.

 

[grimtraveller]

It's impossible to say.
I don't get into a "songwriting" mode as such. I never know when something is going to come and it could be sparked off by anything, something or seemingly nothing at all. There have been times when the song is already 'written' but I may hear a particular track by someone and incorporate some of the ideas, like after hearing "Tommy", I tried a couple of numbers that specifically balanced acoustic and electric guitar. I'd done it a zillion times before though.Thinking about "Hunky Dory", I realized that I liked that English plinky plonky piano tinkling so I got a friend to just play piano. They don't know the album but they have a way of playing that I figured could be useful. Listening to older bebop jazz or reggae albums has inspired me to deliberately go for specific drum patterns and often to incorporate both in the same song. They're a few examples. I'm usually careful if I do that kind of thing to steer the song well away from whatever song(s) I may have drawn from.
Funny thing there, when I first took up an instrument, I wanted to play heavy rock songs but I could never sound like anyone I'd admired. So pretty early on I just stopped. And carved my own odd path. On that path is an amalgamation of every sound and style I've ever heard. And even when I have tried to write something specifically like whatever, it never comes out that way !

 

[MMensch]

A lot of the time I think "how did they do that?" or "why does that sound like it does?" and see whether I can achieve similar. So in that sense, I am influenced by the outside world. However, even were I to try and avoid that, I can't forget what I know already. Simply avoiding listneing to other music does not prevent my brain from forgetting what it has already heard, so I think that shutting off outside influences is problematic.

I'm kinda like that, though I tend to separate the analysis (the "How did they do that?" part) and the songwriting. I usually do the analysis first, and after I think I understand what's going on and come up with a way to do it with my gear, I'll start putting a song together, usually taking some lyrical bits that I may have lying around as a starting point. I'm not at all worried about being influenced - like you say, you can't ever unhear something once you've heard it, and in my experience, if you half-try, you can make the most of an influence and still end up with something that has your own sound all over it.

 

[misterbill]

When I feel that creative urge(got to be a better word)coming on, the first thing I do is kill my radio-or what ever it is that gives me the ability to write will leave.

Does anyone know where songs come from? I’ve got a few I want to send back.

 

[miroslav]

Simply avoiding listening to other music does not prevent my brain from forgetting what it has already heard, so I think that shutting off outside influences is problematic.

I agree...we all hear and have heard tons of music throughout our lives, so of course there IS a subliminal influence on how we write or the types of productions we use in our own work...
...but I'm not talking about shutting that completely off.
I'm talking about shut things off at point when you are in the midst of your work/project.

I think about the classical composers..back when radio/TV/Internet didn't exist. I'm sure they heard the works of their colleagues from time to time, but for most, they created music more from isolation rather than a lot of influences from the music they heard...so it IS possible to even go that far...be totally isolated and still create, though it's not necessary to go that far.

When I feel that creative urge(got to be a better word)coming on, the first thing I do is kill my radio-or whatever it is that gives me the ability to write will leave.

See...that's what I was getting at.
I've had that happen a lot, which is why I tend to avoid listening to too much music when I'm in the middle of a production. It's like the minute you focus on something else...whatever idea was in your head tends to fade or even vanish...at least when it's in those very early stages of creation.
Once a production starts to gel and take shape....then there is no fear of losing/confusing your own direction.

I'm not saying you HAVE TO shut everything else off...I'm just wondering how everyone else likes to work. I know some people will intentionally play a LOT of stuff that is close the style of what they want to do in the hopes of "stealing" some juice from them, which is OK as long as you don't get too much influence and come off like a total copycat.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As Gekko referred to, we are the sum of our previous experiences, so I think it's impossible not to be influenced by the music we have heard in the past. I know that's not what you're going for here though.

Personally, for producing the music, I can't even imagine the idea of purposely listening to something else for inspiration, for two reasons. First, as you probably well know by know , for me, 100% of the inspiration comes from the music I am producing; I simply wouldn't get the point of getting inspiration for the production from something I'm not even producing.

Second, it doesn't matter whether I am producing music, writing an article or a letter, programming software, or any other mental activity that requires heavy left/right brain cooperation, I tend to want to turn off any media source around me that may be going on (music, TV, news radio, etc.), because it's just a distraction from the task at hand. I admit that used to like to have background music when I wrote or programmed, but I've discovered that the truth is I usually wind up just tuning it out anyway, so why bother.

Now, I'm not much of a songwriter, I admit; but I have written some over the years, and for me, there's no point in getting inspiration after I've started writing because by then there's not much point. I'm not one that sits down and decides, "OK, I have 'write a song' on my to-do list today, so I need some inspiration." The songwriting for me only starts when the inspiration has already hit, whatever the muse may have been. It more like, "Oooh, now there's an idea for a song, I gotta write that down."

YMMV, IMHO, CTRL ALT DEL, ETC.

G.

 

[MMensch]

See...that's what I was getting at.
I've had that happen a lot, which is why I tend to avoid listening to too much music when I'm in the middle of a production. It's like the minute you focus on something else...whatever idea was in your head tends to fade or even vanish...at least when it's in those very early stages of creation.
Once a production starts to gel and take shape....then there is no fear of losing/confusing your own direction.

Oh, I thought you were asking about something else, actually. But is that even feasible, working on a musical project and listening to something else that is? I mean I guess it is since you wouldn't be asking about that I suppose, but I don't think I know anyone who works like that - do you?

Second, it doesn't matter whether I am producing music, writing an article or a letter, programming software, or any other mental activity that requires heavy left/right brain cooperation, I tend to want to turn off any media source around me that may be going on (music, TV, news radio, etc.), because it's just a distraction from the task at hand. I admit that used to like to have background music when I wrote or programmed, but I've discovered that the truth is I usually wind up just tuning it out anyway, so why bother.

I find that to be the case with me, as well. I do lots of translation work, and being an almost fanatical listener of music, I really miss it while I work, but since I've never been able to relegate music to the role of background noise (in fact, I'm also quite fond of silence, i.e. no TV or radio playing at home when I don't feel like purposely listening to music), I simply find it too distracting.

 

[miroslav]

... but I don't think I know anyone who works like that - do you?

No.
I avoid outside influences/distractions.
But I've heard/read where a band will say how part of their pre-production was to listen to a lot of music by X, Y, Z artists....as they wanted to emulate those styles.

Now I can dig that concept, however, I find that often leads to you unconsciously (or maybe even consciously) "stealing" from those artists.
All that listening will undoubtedly influence your creative endeavors, unless you already have your stuff well worked out...in which case why bother listening.

I can even recall artists who when interviewed talked about how they would take certain well-known songs that they wanted to emulate and just "turn them inside out" change the lyrics and call them their own.

The question was how much do people use outside influences to get their own ideas going...or how much do they avoid it.
I listen to all kinds of music...so I'm sure there some overall influence from all that listening that gets into my head...but that's not quite the same as actually putting on specific albums to "guide" you as you hash out your own ideas...and I've heard some folks work that way.

 

[MMensch]

OK, I see what you mean. Though the above example with band X recording and album listening to lots of band Y doesn't apply to me (because I never do more than one song in succession), I will say that I've often taken a song or an album I really liked and tried to analyse what makes it work so well for me. However, my experience has been quite the opposite of what you're wary of - no matter how I try to copy, I'll only ever sound like me. I might be working on something that I think is a huge step forward and/or in a new direction for me, and I'll still have people complimenting me on my *consistency*. Personally, I see that both as a blessing - having found a recognisably personal style of musical expression - and as a curse, i.e. not being able to step outside it even if I want to.

 

[grimtraveller]

The question was how much do people use outside influences to get their own ideas going...or how much do they avoid it.
I listen to all kinds of music...so I'm sure there some overall influence from all that listening that gets into my head...but that's not quite the same as actually putting on specific albums to "guide" you as you hash out your own ideas

Well, I never listen to specific albums or songs for guidance. My listening is actually very random, there's no rhyme nor reason and it's never connected to whatever I may be writing or going to record that day. I could be listening to folk one minute, reggae the next, then some heavy rock, next day some Indian, then some jazz, then 70s pop.....I rarely listen to music at home unless I'm cooking or washing up or {grooooaaaaan} decorating. I do most of my listening on the road {I drive for a living} or as I'm loading my van. Just as an example, over the last 10 days, I've been listening to 8 or 9 of the female artists in my collection {Erykah Badu, Des'ree, Melanie, Leslie Duncan, Judy Kelly, Barbara Bell, Sue Gaines and a few others} and if I get to songs I particularly like, I'll rewind and listen over and over till I think, well, it's time to move on. Within all of that, I may hear an effect or a phrase or a piece of instrumentation that really catches my head and I may file that away in my mind for future use. Or I may forget it. But I often have found that trying to recreate someone elses thingy doesn't work for me in the way that artist made it work. What would come out would be my idiosyncratic attempts and you'd never in a million years guess where it might have drawn inspiration from. That is, providing I kept it. But to be honest it really is random. I wouldn't listen to anyone's music before tracking or mixing coz I just can't give it my proper attention. I've written tons of stuff on the road and that nearly always will happen when I'm listening to a talk show or the news on the radio or as I'm doing a delivery {it's quite an event, trying to remember a tune or lyric while having a chat with a customer and saying "could you date, time, print name and sign there, please ?" !} and I keep a dictaphone in the van for such happenings, partly coz I never know when they'll happen, partly coz if I don't, it is as rare as hen's teeth for me to remember hours later.
So I neither avoid outside influences, nor specifically hunt them down.

 

[MMensch]

I keep a dictaphone in the van for such happenings, partly coz I never know when they'll happen, partly coz if I don't, it is as rare as hen's teeth for me to remember hours later.

And isn't forgetting an idea that you had and knew that it was good just the most infuriating thing ever? I'm an obsessive note-taker and dictaphone user, but I've had it happen and I have an incredibly hard time getting over it - I can be grumpy for the rest of the day on that account. Or the type of ideas where you know that you could do something cool if you were in your studio at that moment, but you're not and the idea is too vague to sing or put into words? Urrrrrrrrrgh ...

 

[grimtraveller]

And isn't forgetting an idea that you had and knew that it was good just the most infuriating thing ever?

Tell me about it ! You know, I have tapes full of ideas and passages for existing songs. Sometimes they don't get used or heard for years. Then I'll get round to finishing off a song and I'll find the entry "bass for such and such a track " or "viola for such and such a track" or whatever. I'm usually hit by one of three reactions;
i. Man, I'd forgotten this totally. And I'm glad I kept it coz it's neat !
ii. This is dreck ! I'm so glad no one can hear this ! And no one ever will (DELETE).....
iii. Blimey, I just can't work out what I was attempting here. What was I thinking !!?

 

[miroslav]

Oh God!
All the great music ideas that I had at the worst possible time...and then not able to pull it back out of my head when I got to my studio!!!

I do jot down lyric ideas...or luckily, there is a Steinway grand piano about 30 feet outside my office at my day job so I've walked over to it and quickly worked out an idea if it pops in my head when I'm nearby.

But the absolute WORST...is when I get a great music idea in my head...and I manage to keep it burning most of the day, and then someone turns on a radio or I walk by a TV monitor and hear some music playing...and in 5 seconds, my idea is gone.............................................................

ARRRRRRRRRGH!

I've jumped up and literally covered my ears at times to avoid hearing some outside musical influence in order to NOT lose my idea...but man, when it slips away, it's hard to get it back.

 

[grimtraveller]

...but man, when it slips away, it's hard to get it back.

Many a time, I've been asleep when a tune has come to me. And in that half awake state, I'll hum it over and over and develop it. Now, I only need to get up, go downstairs, hum it into the dictaphone and then I could go back to sleep. But no ! I tell myself over and over that I'll remember and back to sleep I go. And when I wake up, I've forgotten it !!

 

[grimtraveller]

But the absolute WORST...is when I get a great music idea in my head...and I manage to keep it burning most of the day, and then someone turns on a radio or I walk by a TV monitor and hear some music playing...and in 5 seconds, my idea is gone.............................................................

ARRRRRRRRRGH!

I've jumped up and literally covered my ears at times to avoid hearing some outside musical influence in order to NOT lose my idea...but man, when it slips away, it's hard to get it back.

I had this happen a few days ago. On saturday, I'd tracked lots of songs with a mate and on sunday morning, I was reading in the bath when a bass melody came to me that I figured could fit one of the bits we'd done. Rather than get out and soak up the place, I just kept humming and developing the piece. Continued as I got out, dried and dressed and talked to my wife. Answered questions from the kids. Then I went downstairs and rather than go straight to the dictaphone, went to get myself a drink then washed the kids' hair, argued about what to watch on telly and you guessed it, I forgot it !
I just can't remember it.

 

[MichaelFlannery]

Isolation Vs. Referencing

I always record my song ideas onto my phone, which is also my alarm so it sits by my bed. Sometimes I wake up and have no clue what I'm mumbling into the thing, but sometimes it works out.
I'd like to respond to the idea of using other recordings as a guide for how to proceed with an in progress production. If it doesn't matter, if the song is mine and I'm just making it for the hell of it, I follow no rules.

On the other hand, sometimes I'm producing to try to achieve a sound. I might want my track to play well alongside say, something off of Pixies "Bossanova" and the Breeders "Pod" (read awesome rock and roll from the same camp made in 1990) In that case, a serious listen to drum sounds, guitar distortions, bass personality, and songwriting choices is imperative.
When recording the end product, or writing with a specific purpose in mind, if I want my song to relate or connect well to a certain sound or feel- I don't stress copying. If what I make is original, it can only help my production to reference the records that exemplify the sound I wish to achieve.

ROCK!

 

[Armistice]

I mustn't be as smart as you dudes, because I don't find myself humming melodies etc.. in the bath or otherwise.. Generally I'll be mucking around on an acoustic guitar and I'll make up a bit, and i'll either keep going and make up another bit, or I'll stop and hope I remember the bit until I feel like making up another bit. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I figure if I don't remember it, it wasn't all that good in the first place. Sometimes words come whilst I'm doing this, other times after, other times not at all as I also do instrumental stuff. Sometimes I'll just deliberately sit down with a new something... technology / tuning / something else and bang away until I make something out of it...

I pick up on what other people do from music I listen to and get ideas of ways to do things, but I don't get "musical inspiration" as such. Some people's music sends me down particular paths, however, which I explore until something comes of it...

So it all depends. Right now it's midwinter and all I want to do when I get home from work is sit near the heater and watch the tube, but I'll get over that shortly, I expect...

 

[miroslav]

I don't think it's a question of "smarts"...IMO it's more about "loose junk" in your subconscious making it's way up into your consciousness.

Sometimes I do the same thing...pick up a guitar and just start messing with it and trying out stuff, and the idea happens at that moment, as I'm working it, but there have been many times where song melodies and/or lyrics just pop into my head out of nowhere.

I would say at least half of the stuff I've written just popped in my head as a melody/lyric when I was nowhere near my studio or any instruments or listening to any other music. Not usually the whole song, but the foundation that became the song.
In the shower (pretty common)...while half sleeping/dreaming...walking down the street...etc.
It appears that it's when your mind is free of conscious thought and it's just sort of zipping around randomly on whatever comes loose from your "inner vault". That's when it happens the most.