My weak cakewalk mixes....

[Stratomaster]

This is probably better asked in the mixing/mastering forum but...oh well- My problem is LOW VOLUME MIXES!--we're talking at about -18 to -20db rms average when analyzed in wavelab! By the time I limit these suckers up to a max of about -13 to -12 db average the mix doesnt really resemble the original-and its STILL not up to par loudness wise with commercial cd's. So whats up with that?

A little info is necessary I suppose-when I record to cakewalk(through my tascam tmd-1000 board) I get the levels as hot as I can-without clipping(usually) and when I mix-according to the level meters on the stereo out--Im also pushing as hard as I can there without clipping. I then bounce the entire mix to an open track-I then export this track to, say the desktop where I can open it in wavelab to do my final tweaks. But what a scrawny sight the wave is-Ive imported some pro tracks and the difference visually in the wave is tremendous-by the time I limit it(twice usually with an L1)-its starting to resemble the pro stuff-but the amount of processing changes the mix.

My guess for the cause of this-would be peaks-on things like snare drums for example-I've been hesitant to use compressors in my mixes-because to my ears the mix sounds decent-and to me the less cheap plug in effects-the better. But I know this can't be normal-something is wrong.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[James Argo]

You right, it's better be posted on mixing forum. But nevermind. First thing you need to mention before do regular editing is devide the tracks by it's frequency range.

Excuse me Jaymz...?

Yes. Every instrument / track has a reason to be there. eg. Kick giving you a "kick" in the lower freq. Bass giving you a "bassic" or pad to the bottom area. They work together. Guitars, and vox mostly found in middle freq. And such like keyboards, guitars and such are mid high authority. Cymbals and such mostly in highest.

Well, I know that Jaymz, so what else...?

Every instrument has it's own characteristic. So you can't tread one the same wat with another. Use compression wisely to "bring em up" when they down, or tame em down when they seem out of line. And you'll wanna do it BEFORE mix. For better mix In Cakewalk, make sure you have average signal shown in the audio view. It means, all tracks are about in the same level. If you capture it some are "loud" and some are "weak", then mix 'em will "kill" the "weak" signal.

Go on Jaymz...

Kay... then use compression wise on each track need it. As you have 'em all somehow equal, then you can start mix 'em. Start with lower freq. (Bass & Kick). Then go higher further.

It doesn't answer my case Jaymz. Can you be more specific ?

Well, you know "normalizing process" ? It brings up all audio data closer to 0dB, based on the "louder" data. Let say your "weak" song is 4:40. Average on -12dB And there is louder part from the whole song on 3:12, 200Hz, -1dB. Just a moment of -1 dB on there. So... if you normalize the song, the proces will only bring your audio "up" 1dB.

Keep goin Jaymz...

You'll notice, normalizing this way won't give you a significant result. Better way is to analyze. What was that "200Hz ,-1dB" on 3:12. What track causing that ?. Hmmm... the snare... back to your snare track. Do editing in the point... so and so and so... finally you have all tracks somehow "equal". Which means all frequency in the song will have somehow equal loudnes. Then you can get better mix.

That seems long way of mix, Jaymz.

Yes. But doable. If your record lack of recording technic, then you'll spend more time on editing & mixing. I didn't say you're stupid or sumthin', but in many case, homerecorders with lack of gears, room, etc can not record a track like pro. So we "cheat" 'em Well, I dunno if this help, but I think I do my best to help you out. Hope you don't get more confuse with this...


Jaymz

 

[Pedullist]

Well Stratomaster, you can't get 'modern sounding' high volume mixes without the help of compressors or maximizers.

The trouble with these things is: you really have to know what you're doing to make it sound right and not over the top (I still think the songs on my album, like Neem Vrij, are way too loud. But I really didn't know what I was doing)

There are three things you can do:

- Use a multiband compressor on the total mix. Very difficult stuff to grasp and VERY easy to make a mistake that'll ruin your mix. I wouldn't recommend it.

- Use limiters (or compressors, but limiters are more friendly/less obvious) on the seperate tracks so that the overall volume per track doesn't peak that much. I know, you're scared of losing dynamics but believe you me: one LOUD peak on a track that's for 99% soft is NOT the kind of dynamics you like to hear/work with. So limit that sucker, and you'll be able to mix the track much easier. Consequently, the overall mix is more stable. And above all: LOUDER!

- Use a maximizer. Ugh, I ruined my CD with that thing. Sure, it sounds great next to professional recordings but does that 'professional' recording really sound that great? Not recommended either.

I would go for option 2, and if your ears are good you could try option 1 afterwards. But, like I said, BE CAREFUL.

Where can I find more of your music, btw? I like!

 

[Pedullist]

Damn, James said it all right at the same moment I was typing it!

Well, he's right. Just like me

 

[James Argo]

Damn, James said it all right at the same moment I was typing it!

Well, he's right. Just like me

Not exactly... I was faster and more artistic...

 

[moskus]

Talking to yourself is not artistic...

 

[James Argo]

Hey Trojka, Congratulation on your new status...

And new avatar...

 

[Pedullist]

Artistic, artistic....tsk tsk. Where not here to PLAY AROUND, JAMES ARGO! Remember, this is NOT kindergarten! This is serious business, informing the people...

 

[moskus]

Remember, this is NOT kindergarten!

Isn't it?

 

[James Argo]

Talking to yourself is not artistic...

and

Artistic, artistic....tsk tsk. Where not here to PLAY AROUND, JAMES ARGO! Remember, this is NOT kindergarten! This is serious business, informing the people...

Ouuuuchh.....



James Argo managed not to attach any image.

 

[moskus]

James Argo managed not to attach any image.

And thanks for that...

 

[Pedullist]

Hey Trojka, Congratulation on your new status...

And new avatar...

You know what? I always thought you were a massive black producer from the Bronx! Didn't you have an avatar that looked like that?

 

[moskus]

He had a Harley-wannabe-avatar...

 

[Stratomaster]

LoL-You guys are funny-and helpful too (i think)-thanks for your responses. Hmm a few followup questions-Since I have no idea how to make my posts look pretty like you guys I'll just cut and paster some quotes I'd like clarified a bit.

James said:Use compression wisely to "bring em up" when they down, or tame em down when they seem out of line. And you'll wanna do it BEFORE mix. For better mix In Cakewalk, make sure you have average signal shown in the audio view. It means, all tracks are about in the same level. If you capture it some are "loud" and some are "weak", then mix 'em will "kill" the "weak" signal.

Me-What do you mean before the mix? Usually when I play guitar and bass the levels are pretty even and I have plenty of fader volume to spare-Do I really want to compress in this case?? It seems like the (real) drums are probably my biggest problem-I read this idea in another forum what do you think; Send all the drum tracks to their own stereo out and apply a compressor to the overall kit there-seems like a good idea you think? I'm going to try it tonight unless... Also-where do I find this"average signal" setting? Remember I'm using cwpa 9.03

--I also understand what your saying about normalizing-Ive tried it-just for experiment purposes-and the wave hardly changes at all--like I said I'm pushing everything as close to "0" as possible but my average is so small--I'm being ruled by a few peaks here and there. I see your point James--USE COMPRESSION on individual tracks-Is that the gist of it? That was a real great post by the way-thanks for your generosity-anything else you can think of on the subject--bring it on
__________________________

Pedullist-you can't get 'modern sounding' high volume mixes without the help of compressors or maximizers.

me- Well I dont need to sound like the Stone Temple Pilots or anything-But it seems like I should be able to play my mix out of cakewalk and HEAR IT!!!! Hell I used to make better mixes on my cassette 4 track-or should I say easier?--I don't need perfection or the loudist mix-I just don't want the world to blow there speakers when the next cd comes on!!! Yes I've recently started limiting my mixes-you heard one yesterday-and I've used maximizers and multi-band compressors-my main problem is the initial wave is so measley to start with that it cant survive all this processing and still sound like I want it to. I'm getting the idea that I need to compress individual tracks-i was hoping to keep it really simple-basic and clean-you know, turn up faders, a little panning-boom a listenable demo cd. ...Thanks to you as well your a very helpful guy. Errr I been keeping this secret but I've got some songs here:


Theres all levels of quality there-and most of those have been redone I would reccomend to you----BomberRun, Then and Now,
RiverSong

Sorry for the plug people....


So-Out of curiosity---could anyone tell me how loud THEY can get there mixes (avg rms loudness) out of cakewalk-using real drums and no rockman junk guitar sound preferrably.

 

[James Argo]

Well, Stratomaster, I'm sure you can have "pro" quality mix with your Cakewalk. I did, Pedullist did, moskus... moskus... yes, moskus did also... and so all those million of Cool Kids. BTW, if you haven't read it, please, I urge you to read this legendary thread by sonusman.

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19596

It's loooong thread, but I'm sure you'll get many benefit for every single word he wrote.


Jaymz

 

[James Argo]

You know what? I always thought you were a massive black producer from the Bronx! Didn't you have an avatar that looked like that?

Bronx ?



God dammit !!! ROTFLMAO !!!

The only one I found close to my imagination was Dachay2tnr. Avatar does fake you...

And Stratomaster I think the mixing secret thread is way too long to read online. You can open each page, and save each page to read latter off line, while you get time.


Jaymz

 

[moskus]

moskus... moskus... yes, moskus did also...

Of course I did!


But when?!?

 

[Pedullist]

Bronx ?



God dammit !!! ROTFLMAO !!!

The only one I found close to my imagination was Dachay2tnr. Avatar does fake you...

Jaymz

Not mine...my avatar is me...in a depressed mood.

 

[moskus]

Oh, I thought you were smiling...

 

[James Argo]

While fart...