My Corona

Mick Doobie

Resist We Much
Anybody paying any attention to what is going in Israel? It doesn't appear to be good, at all. Israel was ahead of the curve in vaccinating. Cases are now going up. Booster shots now needed, the vaccine just doesn't last very long. 4-6 months. Are we to get booster shots every 6 months in perpetuity, for a vaccine we have yet to see the possible adverse long term effects?

According to what i'm reading....grain of salt, do your own research...

The hysterics point the finger at the unvaccinated as the driving force behind the Delta variant. The data out of Israel says the opposite. Those who have never had the virus but have had the 2 dose Pfizer vaccine are 13 times more likely to get Delta than those with natural immunity. 13 times. The good news is, at least in the short term before you may find you need a booster, the vaccinated are much less likely to suffer severe illness. If you are vaccinated and get the Delta, you're less likely to find yourself flat on your back and more likely to carry on with normal activities . Awesome. But you're still contagious. Seems to me that suggests, more likely to get it, more likely to spread it.

A published study in the UK shows the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta variant into your cells. It's easily searchable on the net, read for yourself.

There is evidence of a decrease in an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the "early surveillance team" that seek and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. The vaccine is actually making your immune system weaker to fight other viruses and possibly even early forms of cancer?

I don't know man, it is too early to see and too many open questions for there to be reasonable calls for vaccine mandates. We should all be free to decide for ourselves, our own health decisions.
 

Orson

Well-known member
I don't know man, it is too early to see and too many open questions for there to be reasonable calls for vaccine mandates. We should all be free to decide for ourselves, our own health decisions.
But we are. Where are you forced against your will to get the needle?
 

spantini

COO of me, inc.
Anybody paying any attention to what is going in Israel? It doesn't appear to be good, at all. Israel was ahead of the curve in vaccinating. Cases are now going up. Booster shots now needed, the vaccine just doesn't last very long. 4-6 months. Are we to get booster shots every 6 months in perpetuity, for a vaccine we have yet to see the possible adverse long term effects?

According to what i'm reading....grain of salt, do your own research...

...
For years scientists have been working on developing a pancoronavirus vaccine which will protect against all current and any future corona viruses. They are making good progress. When available, this will eliminate the need for periodic boosters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/health/universal-coronavirus-vaccine.html
 
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mjbphotos

What?!?
Anybody paying any attention to what is going in Israel? It doesn't appear to be good, at all. Israel was ahead of the curve in vaccinating. Cases are now going up. Booster shots now needed, the vaccine just doesn't last very long. 4-6 months. Are we to get booster shots every 6 months in perpetuity, for a vaccine we have yet to see the possible adverse long term effects?

According to what i'm reading....grain of salt, do your own research...

The hysterics point the finger at the unvaccinated as the driving force behind the Delta variant. The data out of Israel says the opposite. Those who have never had the virus but have had the 2 dose Pfizer vaccine are 13 times more likely to get Delta than those with natural immunity. 13 times. The good news is, at least in the short term before you may find you need a booster, the vaccinated are much less likely to suffer severe illness. If you are vaccinated and get the Delta, you're less likely to find yourself flat on your back and more likely to carry on with normal activities . Awesome. But you're still contagious. Seems to me that suggests, more likely to get it, more likely to spread it.

A published study in the UK shows the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta variant into your cells. It's easily searchable on the net, read for yourself.

There is evidence of a decrease in an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the "early surveillance team" that seek and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. The vaccine is actually making your immune system weaker to fight other viruses and possibly even early forms of cancer?

I don't know man, it is too early to see and too many open questions for there to be reasonable calls for vaccine mandates. We should all be free to decide for ourselves, our own health decisions.

I love the way anti-vaxxers always say 'it's searchable on the net' rather than actually citing real evidence!
 

TAE

All you have is now
But we are. Where are you forced against your will to get the needle?
In the land of the free....Merica Not everyone but several companies and government agencies here have already said get Vaxed or get axed. I am not an anti vaxer but I am not at a point where I feel it is time to say you must get the Vax like it or not. No one is going to jail for not ...yet.. BUT there are several incidents already and there will be plenty more of people getting arrested for using Fake VAX certificates to get into school or travel on a plane...In Hawaii you can get a big fine and a year in jail for doing so....
 

TAE

All you have is now
I don't know man, it is too early to see and too many open questions for there to be reasonable calls for vaccine mandates. We should all be free to decide for ourselves, our own health decisions.
I agree..there should be no gun to your head to do this. I have a wife and one of two daughters that refuse to at this juncture. ( one daughter finally folded and took the jab) but if you choose not to there is a price to pay. Don't get mad if certain business's or venues say no vax no come in. They have a right to decide for themselves too. Right?
 

Mickster

Well-known member
I'm curious as to what the actual numbers are as regards the statement that Phizer vaccine patients are 13 times more suspectible to getting Covid as opposed to a person with natural immunity after exposure. 13 to 1 could be 1.3% likely to 0.1% likely. Neither is as serious as 100 percent likely being unvaccinated.

And.....those who have natural immunity by having gotten Covid and were never vaccinated will still lose immunity over time over time and still will face a choice of getting Covid again or getting the vaccine. And so......at that point.....the situation will be the same as now......take a chance on getting Covid without the vaccine..........or get a vaccine and pretty much assure yourself that the chances are good that you won't die or go to the hospital.

As for those who are still suspicious about the safety of the vaccines......I'm curious.....what more info would you like to see now that hundreds of millions have gotten the shots?

To be honest......I think those who state that they won't take the shots because they simply don't want to be told what to do are the most honest of all anti-vaxxers. At least they're not spreading stupid ideas about taking the shots.

Mick
 

Mickster

Well-known member
Humans have the overwhelming need to be right and defend their thinking.....no matter what.....to the death in many cases........(see Covid). Humans are mentally and emotionally built to stick with their first impressions or thoughts.

However......and curiously....before expressing their thoughts to others........humans are far more likely to change their minds after observation or learning. Once their thoughts are expressed to others......even one person.........the human psyqui takes over and they will defend their opinions and ideas almost blindly......as to not be wrong in front of of others. Why that happens is VERY complicated....but suffice it to say.....needing to be right....and needing others to be wrong......is a powerful human need.

Just sayin'....and my 2 cents worth of wanting to be right......but knowing full well I could be very wrong.

Mick
 

TalismanRich

Well-known member
Humans have the overwhelming need to be right and defend their thinking.....no matter what.....to the death in many cases........(see Covid). Humans are mentally and emotionally built to stick with their first impressions or thoughts.

However......and curiously....before expressing their thoughts to others........humans are far more likely to change their minds after observation or learning. Once their thoughts are expressed to others......even one person.........the human psyqui takes over and they will defend their opinions and ideas almost blindly......as to not be wrong in front of of others. Why that happens is VERY complicated....but suffice it to say.....needing to be right....and needing others to be wrong......is a powerful human need.

Just sayin'....and my 2 cents worth of wanting to be right......but knowing full well I could be very wrong.

Mick
You're complete wrong here Mick.

in May of 2020, Trump said he was confident we would have at least one vaccine by the end of the year. The Democratic leaders (Schumer, Pelosi, AOC, Harris) all said that they wouldn't take "trump's vaccine" unless it was fully researched and completely approved for use. Republicans said this is the break we need to get this under control.

Then Biden won the election and it became Biden's vaccine rollout. The Democrats said everyone should get vaccinated, and the Republican's all became anti-vaxers.

Seems we'll change our minds to whatever is convenient.
 

Orson

Well-known member
I think the only way you will solve your problems is if you have a civil war. Its not that republicans would actually win. Its that all he things that Democrats keep banging on about would be proven to everybody on the planet that they dont work.................plus it is pure entertainment for the rest of us around the world.

At school when being taught about the Roman Empire which ruled half the known planet for many years. One kid in my class asked what happened to them. I always remember the teacher saying ...."they got fat, complacent and lazy"....................There you have America.
 

Mickster

Well-known member
TalismanRich.....that's a fair point....but it only points out what people said before the vaccine was actually available and not after the point in time when they actually had to decide whether or not to get it. I think you're right about the politics of it all........but not all those who are not getting the shot are republican and not all those who got it are democrat. Lot's of those who will not get it now fall into the "stubborn" category so to speak.

Mick
 

Mick Doobie

Resist We Much
I love the way anti-vaxxers always say 'it's searchable on the net' rather than actually citing real evidence!

C'mon man, why the labels? I don't judge, and I am not "anti-vax". I in fact am pro vax. For some people there are current potential worse things than getting the vax. My wife, my elderly parents, family, friends, and some with whom I do business, vaxxed.

Is it wrong to ask questions? Is discussion wrong, disallowed? Some of what I am reading, I could provide a link citing evidence, but i'm guessing most would not click the link to read, and those who might would just as likely be curious enough to search for themselves.

It's only a discussion, a discussion we should be having.
 

Mick Doobie

Resist We Much
As for those who are still suspicious about the safety of the vaccines......I'm curious.....what more info would you like to see now that hundreds of millions have gotten the shots?

To be honest......I think those who state that they won't take the shots because they simply don't want to be told what to do are the most honest of all anti-vaxxers. At least they're not spreading stupid ideas about taking the shots.

Mick

It has only been about 6 months. Perhaps more info than 6 months provides? Do you know if getting the vax will have health ramifications a year from now, two years, 5 years? Does anyone? Honest question, does anyone? That's not an "anti-vax" question, that's a legitimate question.

There are clearly benefits to getting the vax, there are less publicized side effects (including potential death and other health problems) to getting the vax. Clearly long term side effects, if any, it is too soon to determine. Both the benefits and the side effects should have room at the table for discussion. I am not a scientist, but from my understanding that is the scientific way. "Shut up and do what you're told" breeds apprehension, I would think.
 

Mick Doobie

Resist We Much
I am unable to provide a link to the original piece I read that raised questions...in myself. Therefore, I will copy-paste so you may read for yourself, if you wish. After reading, if you so choose, you can do as I, search and wade through medical/scientific jargon to determine the validity of what was said. I cannot vouch for this person who states that he/she is a Dr. or the validity of what is written. I am still searching for answers, to questions. Please feel free to comment, particularly if you have a medical/science background. It will have to be part 1 and part 2 to fit within format.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The COVID Vaccine: A Physician's Perspective​

—Open Blogger​


My name is Dr. CAT, I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution

I am not anti vaccine. I am anti vaccine mandate, particularly in the case of the novel mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. As with all of you, I watched in horror from my position at a big hospital in February 2020 as COVID-19 ravaged Italy. The virus was spreading globally, nothing seemed to stop it, and thousands were dying with no effective treatment to be found. It was truly a nightmare scenario.

Physicians and scientists were collaborating globally using Facebook and Twitter to speed the spread of new information and ideas around the world within minutes. Major scientific journals expedited the release and publication of COVID related articles and made them free to access. It was amazing. This was going to be a global triumph. But then politics joined the fray. And when politics and science mix, science loses. What the government scientists spoke was the truth, everything else was labelled misinformation and banned.

For centuries the scientific method invited questions, invited curiosity. Stupid questions and fringe ideas overturned scientific dogma throughout history. It is how we advance science. We question results, question truth, keep experimenting. But when politics and science mix, science loses. Fringe ideas such as a heliocentric solar system get Copernicus and Galileo thrown out of the church. Offering an alternative treatment to COVID, or questioning the effectiveness of masks gets you banned from Facebook and YouTube.

The family of coronaviruses is fairly common. It along with rhinovirus, adenovirus and enterovirus typically cause symptoms of the common cold. A vaccine which can tackle some or all of these viruses would be a windfall for any pharmaceutical company. Cure for the common cold. But the cure does not exist. Prior to 2020, we have never successfully made a vaccine against the coronavirus. Prior to 2020, we have also never made a vaccine using the mRNA technology. But, within months of isolating SARS COV-2, we not only have a vaccine against a coronavirus, but one using mRNA technology, AND near simultaneous release by several companies globally.

This should warrant cautious optimism from the medical and scientific community. Yes it works, but is it safe? Is it necessary? By the time of release of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines in late 2020, we were gaining control of the pandemic. We were finding effective treatment strategies, deaths were down. We identified vulnerable populations. The vaccine was promising, but the urgency was waning. It left time for careful consideration. Be scientists. Ask questions. What are the side effects? How long does immunity last? Is it effective against variants? What are the longer term, unseen effects? We don’t know. Let’s find out.


End part 1
 

Mick Doobie

Resist We Much

The COVID Vaccine: A Physician's Perspective​

—Open Blogger​


Part 2

"My name is Dr. CAT, I am a 27 year military veteran of both the Air Force and Army, a board certified emergency physician and employee of a Big Hospital system. I am a graduate of a Big 10 University School of Medicine and completed my residency at a prestigious institution"

The majority of COVID-19 deaths are in people over 60 with other significant medical problems. It is reasonable to focus vaccine efforts on this population. There may be some unseen risk to the vaccine, but they stand a significant chance of dying from COVID. The benefit outweighs the risk. That is a decision we make all the time in medicine. The treatment has drawbacks, but the disease is worse. But in the less vulnerable population? Let’s wait a little bit. There are two novel aspects to this vaccine. The mRNA mechanism, and the Coronavirus target. We need careful consideration to find out what the risks of the vaccine really are.
That did not happen. When politics and science mix, science loses. Hurry up! Vaccinate everyone. We will restrict you until you are vaccinated. No 4th of July if we don’t reach vaccination goals! Hurry up!
AstraZeneca was the first to be pulled in Europe because of unanticipated blood clotting issues. The Johnson and Johnson adenovirus vector vaccine faced some early questions here at home. Healthy people were getting ill, suffering long term appetite suppression and cardiomyopathy after the vaccine. Wait. Stop. Slow down. Let’s take time to look at this closer before we forge ahead. No. When politics and science mix, science loses. Just shut up and take the jab. You are banned from Facebook for spreading misinformation about your vaccine side effects.
The vaccine was designed for the original COVID. We are now Delta dominant. Cases are surging. Companies are mandating the vaccine with threat of firing for noncompliance, mandating the vaccine to fly, mandating the vaccine to attend a game. The FDA made a hasty approval of the Pfizer vaccine, and the floodgates have opened. Now, under the thin veneer of FDA approval, more companies, my hospital included, are mandating the vaccine in order to remain employed.
The hospital’s rationale is that the Delta surge is driven by the unvaccinated. Is this true? The data out of Israel, who is months ahead of our curve with Delta says the opposite. Those who have never had COVID, but did receive the full 2 dose Pfizer regimen are 13 times more likely to get Delta than those with natural immunity, those who contracted the original COVID and recovered. 13 times more likely to contract Delta if you are vaccinated.
And of those who were vaccinated and contracted Delta, how long was it between vaccination and infection with Delta? Four months. Israelis were vaccinated in Jan/Feb and contracted Delta by June.
So we have a twice novel vaccine with known immediate side effects, no long term study , and which only seems to be effective against the current variant for 4-6 months. Will “take the jab or be fired” be a recurring threat from Big Hospital going forward? Every 6 months, get your booster or you are fired?
They reply “But those who are vaccinated and contract Delta don’t get as sick!” Right, but they are still contagious, and now not sick enough to stay home. And if there is a risk of harm from taking a new vaccine, and the only benefit is that I get less sick, that choice should be mine, not forced under threat of unemployment.
And speaking about long term effects, are we seeing any now? Long term effects are just that. They happen months or years later. This is why a new drug takes years to come to market. The FDA graveyard is littered with medications which made it through the approval process, only to be recalled due to an unforeseen long term consequence. Try to buy Zantac, a once popular OTC antacid, at CVS. It was just recalled because an impurity causes cancer. Didn’t see that coming. Vioxx, thalidomide, fen-phen… oops.
What are the long term effects of the mRNA vaccine? Who knows. There is early evidence of decreased numbers of an immune cell called CD-8 T cells immediately following vaccination. These cells are part of the early surveillance team which seeks out and destroys cells infected with viruses or are abnormally growing cancerous cells. Dr. Ryan Cole, a pathologist and immunologist in Idaho has noticed an increase in invasive melanomas, endometrial cancer, and cervical dysplasia as well as common viral infections such as molluscum, HPV and HSV. These are typically conditions a healthy immune system with functioning CD-8 cells would knock out before you even knew about it. But in post vaccinated people, these infections and cancer are quickly becoming more common. Suppressed T cells are not there to stop it. This is anecdote, not a published study, but this is the kind of thing that spurs questions in a healthy scientific community. We consider the issue, study it find the data, prove the hypothesis. But in today’s world, Dr. Cole is labelled a kook, ostracized, videos deleted from YouTube for spreading misinformation. Questioning the dogma.
There is also a study published in the UK which identifies antibody dependent enhancement facilitating infection with Delta. Antibody dependent enhancement is a case where the antibodies the vaccine stimulates you to make actually facilitate the entry of the Delta strain into your cells. Instead of making it less likely you will get sick, it makes you more likely. This may explain the Israeli data. This is actual data, published by the British Infection Association. There are long term consequences out there, we just haven’t taken the time necessary to find them.
The Big Hospital policy cites acceptance of the vaccine by the American College of Gynecologists and Obstetricians (ACOG). Give the vaccine to pregnant women. Really? Where is the caution here? Most medications, common medications prescribed frequently to pregnant women, reglan, zofran, phenergran, tylenol, carry the warning on the package insert that they are not well studied in pregnancy, and use is cautioned. We use them because there are decades of use that show them to be probably safe, but still counsel patients before prescribing. The vaccine? Just give it! It is safe! Despite the fact that it is not possible to have a cohort of newborns large enough to show detrimental effect. Disgraceful. What possible reason is there for the rush? When politics and science mix, science loses
It may turn out that the Pfizer vaccine was key in our victory over COVID. This may also be a dark time for science and medicine where we allowed our process to be subverted by politics, and patients lost.
In medicine we talk about informed decision making. The old, paternalistic, directive medicine is in the past. We involve patients in their care, inform them, allow them to make the decisions, right or wrong. Politics mixed with science, science has lost and we have now returned to the paternalistic directive medicine of “vaccinate or else".
 
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spantini

COO of me, inc.
Anybody paying any attention to what is going in Israel? It doesn't appear to be good, at all. Israel was ahead of the curve in vaccinating. Cases are now going up. Booster shots now needed, the vaccine just doesn't last very long. 4-6 months. Are we to get booster shots every 6 months in perpetuity, for a vaccine we have yet to see the possible adverse long term effects?

According to what i'm reading....grain of salt, do your own research...
For years scientists have been working on developing a pancoronavirus vaccine which will protect against all current and any future corona viruses. They are making good progress. When available, this will eliminate the need for periodic boosters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/health/universal-coronavirus-vaccine.html
Additional info..

NPR : Evidence of superhuman immunity
 

Mickster

Well-known member
I think the only way you will solve your problems is if you have a civil war. Its not that republicans would actually win. Its that all he things that Democrats keep banging on about would be proven to everybody on the planet that they dont work.................plus it is pure entertainment for the rest of us around the world.

At school when being taught about the Roman Empire which ruled half the known planet for many years. One kid in my class asked what happened to them. I always remember the teacher saying ...."they got fat, complacent and lazy"....................There you have America.

Funny thing......at school...when I was being taught about the British Empire which ruled much of the Europe from the 17th century onward and even America at one time my teacher told me that the British finally lost the remains of their Empire during WW2 because they got fat, complacent and lazy. They were within an inch of being ruled by Germany and blown into oblivon.

Whew......lucky for them......America came and saved their ass.

Now...I don't know if he or she was right or wrong. Not having lived in Britain at the time......or ever....I really couldn't say. I couldn't state any opinion about the British....now or then.....if I never lived there.

Gee....maybe when America is down and out and about to speak German.....Britain will come and save us.

Mick
 

mjbphotos

What?!?
There are clearly benefits to getting the vax, there are less publicized side effects (including potential death and other health problems) to getting the vax. Clearly long term side effects, if any, it is too soon to determine. Both the benefits and the side effects should have room at the table for discussion. I am not a scientist, but from my understanding that is the scientific way. "Shut up and do what you're told" breeds apprehension, I would think.
One thing we do know for sure - that are certainly potential health effects that could last the rest of your lifetime if you get the virus.

You c-and-p thing is useless without knowing WHO this person is, where it was published, etc. "There is a study" - without citing the actual study, and the details of it is just as meaningless.
 

Orson

Well-known member
Funny thing......at school...when I was being taught about the British Empire which ruled much of the Europe from the 17th century onward and even America at one time my teacher told me that the British finally lost the remains of their Empire during WW2 because they got fat, complacent and lazy. They were within an inch of being ruled by Germany and blown into oblivon.

Whew......lucky for them......America came and saved their ass.

Now...I don't know if he or she was right or wrong. Not having lived in Britain at the time......or ever....I really couldn't say. I couldn't state any opinion about the British....now or then.....if I never lived there.

Gee....maybe when America is down and out and about to speak German.....Britain will come and save us.

Mick
I love that Mick. But totally inaccurate.

America didnt enter WW2 until December 1941...............The Battle Of Britain was from July to October 1940 and the Germans defeated with British armaments and no Americans. You may have fed us but you didnt save our 'ass'. So your history teacher was an idiot.
 
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ibleedburgundy

The Anti-Lambo
You're complete wrong here Mick.

in May of 2020, Trump said he was confident we would have at least one vaccine by the end of the year. The Democratic leaders (Schumer, Pelosi, AOC, Harris) all said that they wouldn't take "trump's vaccine" unless it was fully researched and completely approved for use.
No. They didn't.


The problem here is that you trusted Republicans when they told you what Democrats were saying.
 
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