My Corona

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Again, I'm not doubting the realness of this virus, but have issues with the handling of it.
Lots of agendas at play and quite a bit of conflict of interest going on.

Exactly.

Oh...and the WHO, along with China...are very much to blame for how some things got handled. Lots of mixed signals that could have helped prevent the big, rapid spread in the USA, especially on the east cost.
Do you recall when Trump wanted to shut down more than just the incoming from China...and people both here in the USA and abroad in Europe pushed back and said that would be a very totalitarian move. Where did most of the NY virus spread come from...Europe, not China. China's strains hit more on your side of the country.
 

RFR

Well-known member
China's strains hit more on your side of the country.
Both LA and San Francisco have major international airports. Both also have a sizable Chinese population, particularly the Bay Area.
I believe the Bay Area was the first in the US to institute lockdown. They’ve been in it for 4 weeks now.
 

CoolCat

Well-known member
Heres a good chart to show a birds eye view of the Wuhan Virus pandemic deaths per JHopkins, using a "per 100,000 people".
(of course who trusts China's super low numbers data? not me so much..)

Whose to vote on going back to "open for business!" or "Fines for those who are partying!"
 

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miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
The most I get from that chart...and some others I've seen...is that the shutdowns have not had the desired effect of "flattening the curve".
The politicians and experts see that...and are now in a hard place, how to justify endless shutdowns and watch the economy go into a complete tailspin or just let everyone back out and deal with the consequences that the virus is still here and more people will be sick...but eventually it will pass...and people just need to practice some caution, but go back to work and try to reestablish some normalcy in their lives.

They have a problem...by making all the healthy people stay shut in, the have avoided achieving herd immunity...so whenever they let people out, there will be a second wave. We can stay inside for 6 more months, and the virus will still be around...but by then, there won't be much of a normal life to go back to.
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
I can't help but notice how many people on social media are asking for some sort of forced stay at home actions for the people who are not willing to be holed up endlessly...and how much it's freaking them out that not everyone has chosen to obey the stay at home stuff without question.

What I would like to see, is how those same folks would feel if all the forced "essential" people decided that they too want to stay inside and not have to risk being out and about.
I mean...maybe that's what needs to happen, because when the mail stops coming, when there are no fuel deliveries, when there's no one at the supermarkets to stock the shelves and check you out...etc...etc...I think then all the people who are all pissed that not everyone is staying at home would quickly change their views, because then everything would truly stop...and everyone would have to get back to work.

Instead, you have those who are totally freaked out, still expecting that "someone" else still has to provide them with their essential necessities...and that the people who do that, should not have the option of staying home.

There's an "outcry" that we have to stay inside in order to "save lives"...and that we can't selectively choose who should live and who should die...
...yet, by expecting without question that "someone" has to go out to do the "essential" stuff, while the rest of us get to stay home...we're already making those selective decisions, but people don't want to acknowledge that.
Serious double standard and lots of hypocrisy.
 

RFR

Well-known member
The biggest thing that this pandemic has done is to make people fucking insane!
Imagine that! Some people are not only welcoming, but demanding, their own and other’s slavery!
 

Gtoboy

Well-known member
The biggest thing that this pandemic has done is to make people fucking insane!
Imagine that! Some people are not only welcoming, but demanding, their own and other’s slavery!

I think a lot of them already were:eek:
 

Armistice

Son of Yoda
The most I get from that chart...and some others I've seen...is that the shutdowns have not had the desired effect of "flattening the curve".

Oh, really?

Capture.PNG

But what would we know, right?


They have a problem...by making all the healthy people stay shut in, the have avoided achieving herd immunity...

miro - you don't know anything about "herd immunity" - firstly, the term is used to describe the effect from mass vaccinations, not mass infections, secondly there is at present, zero proof that it's even possible with COVID-19.

The UK played with the "herd immunity" concept for several days, only - instead of locking down. And now they have a disaster.

And Sweden's model, for which love was expressed earlier in this thread, is now being heavily criticised, based on the fact that of all the Nordic countries, they have by far the worst death rate per capital.

And as for the "it's just the flu" and 30,000 people died of the flu last year. Firstly, in 2 days' time, you'll hit 30,000 deaths in a month from COVID-19. What do you think's going to happen in a year? Good luck with that. Secondly, if 30,000 people died from the flu in the US last year then because you don't vaccinate against it enough - you know, and achieve "herd immunity"? Scaled for population, that's about 3 times the death rate of other countries whose health practices you're not interested in understanding because you're American and what the fuck does the rest of the world know about anything?

Enjoy your disaster.
 

gecko zzed

Grumpy Mod
Australia's daily incidence (shown in the graph that Armistice posted above) is a positive sign that Australia has it under control. New Zealand's graph has a similar shape.

Australia's infection rate is 253 per million (NZ is 287), while both have a death rate of 2 per million.

UK's infection rate is 1451, and death rate: 190
USA: 1939 and 86
Sweden: 1181 and 119

Sweden, often portrayed as the poster child for good governance, looks to be heading for trouble, as its daily incidence is not curving downwards.

However, there are many reasons why the virus may spread faster in some countries and not others. It's not just a consequence of policies and procedures. Geography is a factor (e.g. a country's accessibility), population density, population mobility, population demographics, availability of sanitation, hygiene and health services, a populations' willingness to act on advice, the preparedness of a country for pandemics, and finally its policies.

Given all the above, it's possible to find a number of reasons why Australia and NZ are faring pretty well above and beyond the results of policies. Nevertheless, preventing the entry of the virus and containing its spread are important that appear to have worked.
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Oh, really?

View attachment 106051

But what would we know, right?




miro - you don't know anything about "herd immunity" - firstly, the term is used to describe the effect from mass vaccinations, not mass infections, secondly there is at present, zero proof that it's even possible with COVID-19.

The UK played with the "herd immunity" concept for several days, only - instead of locking down. And now they have a disaster.

And Sweden's model, for which love was expressed earlier in this thread, is now being heavily criticised, based on the fact that of all the Nordic countries, they have by far the worst death rate per capital.

And as for the "it's just the flu" and 30,000 people died of the flu last year. Firstly, in 2 days' time, you'll hit 30,000 deaths in a month from COVID-19. What do you think's going to happen in a year? Good luck with that. Secondly, if 30,000 people died from the flu in the US last year then because you don't vaccinate against it enough - you know, and achieve "herd immunity"? Scaled for population, that's about 3 times the death rate of other countries whose health practices you're not interested in understanding because you're American and what the fuck does the rest of the world know about anything?

Enjoy your disaster.


First off...I'm talking about the USA...and specifically NY and the other states where the shutdowns were put in place....not Australia.

Second...maybe you need to read up on "herd immunity" a bit more before you tell me I don't know anything about it.

What is Herd Immunity and How Can We Achieve It With COVID-19? - COVID-19 - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health

There are two ways to get there...since we don't have a vaccine for COVID-19 and won't for at least another 6-12 months...maybe more...
...the other way to achieve heard immunity is *allow* more people to become infected, and those who do not get sick, will help protect those who do by achieving herd immunity. That's already been shown with this virus that *many* people have tested positive but NOT gotten sick...so we were on the path toward "heard immunity"...but by forcing all the healthy people to stay inside...they are now *temporarily* isolated from the virus, so those getting sick from it are not seeing any benefit from the ones that are not, because we are not getting to the needed level of herd immunity.

If you want to put all your money on some vaccines that may or may not work (notice how the flu vaccines are hit-n-miss from year to year)...that's your personal choice, but there are other, natural ways to maintain and develop immunity, so please don't preach about the man-made way as the only/best way.
I haven't been sick with any kind of viral flu or bacterial illness since I was a kid...and it's not just because some people around me have been vaccinated.

It's interesting how many people always think the best way to tackle a natural problem is with a man-made solution. If I had a nickel for every man-made solution that failed or had serious side-effects, I would a very rich man.

When they let all the healthy people go back out...there will be a second wave, and still no herd immunity...so don't be surprised that the countries that have managed to lower their infection rates, will suddenly see them go back up...unless of course, you guys in Australia plan to all stay inside for another 6-12 months until there is a vaccine...?
That's just not realistic, is it...?...or maybe you're going to tell me that the economy in Australia works much differently, and keeping the country shut down for months will not have any dire effects long-term, and that I "don't understand" how that works down there...?

And that is the real point that people who are highly fearful of the virus want to ignore...the long-term negative effects on life that a destroyed economy will have for the next decade or more. Maybe for a lot seniors that's not as big a concern as the immediate fear of dying from the virus since they are in the higher risk category, and that AFA any long-term economic fallout, well the younger generation will just have to work it out for themselves...
...but I think even us older folks might want to at least think about what we're leaving behind, as much as we do about what's still left for us ahead.

Now some of the experts are saying that we can expect this coronavirus and it's mutations to become a seasonal thing...which may make it very hard to create the right vaccine in time for whatever expected mutation and new strain might be arriving.
So are we going to plan on shutting down the world every year for a few months to avoid the spread...?
 
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miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Given all the above, it's possible to find a number of reasons why Australia and NZ are faring pretty well above and beyond the results of policies. Nevertheless, preventing the entry of the virus and containing its spread are important that appear to have worked.

Yes, for sure. AU and NZ do have a more isolated geography among possibly some other factors....and I don't disagree that preventing entry would be a great way to stop a virus...but, that's rarely possible, because by the time you are aware of it, it's already here. This virus was in the USA probably as early as late October...it just wasn't making itself obvious, and some people think there were cases of COVID-19 illness that were misdiagnosed even back in November and December.

AFA truly containing spread...it's called quarantining the sick...not the healthy.
Some people called for a complete quarantine of NYC, the biggest hot spot...but the state politicians didn't want to.
Unless you can be 100% certain that the virus will be 100% gone...then keeping healthy people shut in only delays things...and already "experts" have admitted that they knew that, and are now expecting another wave when they let the healthy back out...and they also admit that it was done primarily to slow down the overflow in the hospitals, and not because of some belief that we could wait out the virus until it passes.

So again...achieving natural herd immunity in lieu of any non-existing vaccines...would have been a natural way to get ahead of the virus.

PS.

They "thought" the curve was changing in NY a few days ago...but then yesterday there was another large spike up.
We will be one month into the shutdown at the end of this week.

In Michigan, they have started demonstrations against the shutdown (I'm sure other places will soon join in the coming week or two)...not because they don't believes that the virus is happening or that it can kill some people...but because their state is ready to collapse economically, and there is no attempt by the politicians to look for some middle ground on how to be safe while also allowing people to get back to work on some level...in order to survive.
All they are focused on is the "curve flattening" in order to reduce the hospital overcrowding. It's not about anything else.
 
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mjbphotos

What?!?
AFA truly containing spread...it's called quarantining the sick...not the healthy.
Maybe you have forgotten that people who HAVE the virus may not show symptoms for as long as 2 weeks - but still be spreading the virus to others. So, you, the 'healthy' person could still get it from one of those 'healthy' people. and spread it to others, who spread it to others who....
 

RFR

Well-known member
Maybe you have forgotten that people who HAVE the virus may not show symptoms for as long as 2 weeks - but still be spreading the virus to others. So, you, the 'healthy' person could still get it from one of those 'healthy' people. and spread it to others, who spread it to others who....

Oh my. This post is a good example of how truly lost people are.

This is nothing more than the latest fear pandemic. Just like all the freedom robbing measures put in place after 911........To keep us ‘safe’ from terrorism.
Now measures are being put in place to ‘ keep us safe’ from disease. All the freedom killing measures will NEVER go away, and you’re ok with that????
Why? Because the lying government told you so?
Because the lying media told you so?
Because the lying health ‘authorities’ told you so?
Because lying Bill Gates told you so?
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Maybe you have forgotten that people who HAVE the virus may not show symptoms for as long as 2 weeks - but still be spreading the virus to others. So, you, the 'healthy' person could still get it from one of those 'healthy' people. and spread it to others, who spread it to others who....

I guess you're never leaving your house again.

"What if" and "maybe" can really screw with people's minds when fear is added to the mix.


Oh my. This post is a good example of how truly lost people are.

So I was out the other day, had to drive over to Connecticut to pick up something from a guy (I'm sure I spread the virus all the way there and back :rolleyes:)...and I actually saw people on the highway, driving in their cars, wearing masks and gloves...HUH?
It's like people think the virus is just everywhere, in the air like so much pollen, and even one breath of air without a mask will leave you infected. :facepalm:

I've seen neighbors coming out of their house to bring a bag of trash to the curb...wearing gloves and a mask...HUH?
I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, that maybe it was a dirty/stinky bag of trash...but I think they were just concerned that they might get the virus walking down their driveway and back into the house.

I've been out multiple times in the past month...not to bars and clubs and all that (they are all closed)...but to the supermarket, the hardware store, to pick up pizza...and even to another state. I don't wear gloves or a mask, but I keep gloves and a mask in my car in case some places won't let you in without one...but so far that has not been the case. I guess NY isn't as insane as CA about that! ;)

I've not been infected...not gotten sick or felt ill in any way. All I do, is wash/disinfect my hands often, especially when going in/out of public places...and never, ever do I touch my face until I come home, then I wash my hands again, twice, then finally I can wash my face and not think about it anymore.
I know that I don't have any virus, because all my adult life I've practiced pretty conservative social hygiene, long before COVID-19 came to town...'cuz I learned early on how most germs are spread and how to avoid them.

We either learn to live with this and work with it and around it, just like so many other infectious illnesses that we have "floating around" every year...or we all might as well just board up our doors and windows and never go out again...for as long as the food holds out.
They are already saying the virus will still be here into the Fall...but most likely, everyone is gearing up to "open" the economy on May 1....I don't think any states will have much luck staying shut past that date without risking riots and a lot of grief from people who have watched their lives crumble away, not from the virus, but from the shutdowns.

So I'm curious how the "what if" and "maybe" people will react when the shutdowns end...suck it up and go back to work and leave their houses, or stay in side indefinitely.
I find it kinda bizarre that many are going to just do what they are told...even if it contradicts their own fears...but especially if it feeds them.
 
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RFR

Well-known member
In my small town of about 10,000 people it’s pretty much normal. Everything is open, but all we pretty much have is considered an essential service
Many people I’ve talked to feel that from November to January that the evil covid has swept through already.
People were getting sick with a flu like bug that was nastier than anything previously experienced. Usually the person was bedridden for a couple of days and with ‘flu-like’ symptoms that lasted two weeks with a dry cough.
The big common denominator was people saying that they had never experienced a ‘flu’ like this. A bug unlike any other.
Could it be???? The corona was here as early an Nov???
We’ll never know. But if that was in fact the case, that just wouldn’t fit in with the official narrative.
Currently there are very few cases in my area. I even have a very high risk friend currently fighting cancer who thought he had it but tested negative.
 

Mickster

Well-known member
People on one side of this issue are painting the other side as lambs. People on one side of this issue are painting the other side as selfish morons. Neither is true......and neither side is completely right........but human nature is to resist with all our might....not being 100% right.

Oh sure......each side will pretend to see some logic or reasonable aspect to the others argument. (not really though)

We are who we are and that's ok. Be who you are. Changing that is the real crime in life.

Paranoia is real. Anger is real. Desperation is real. Fear is real. These are human feelings that are coming out here. Let it be.

Those who are paranoid......are always paranoid. Those who are angry....are always angry. Those who are sheep.....are always sheep.

Those who feel they're 100% right........are fools.
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
Those who feel they're 100% right........are fools.

I keep myself to just 95% right...man's gotta know his limitations. ;)
I'm the 10th man.
If nine people look at the exact same information and arrive at the exact same conclusion, it's the duty of the 10th man to disagree. :)

OK...so a 7 state coalition of primarily Democrat governors just decided that they want to keep their states closed for another month.
Now tell me there isn't any political motivation in their decision.
Meanwhile a whole bunch of other states are sticking to the May 1 reopening.

Some of the stock experts are already saying that if we don't do the May 1 reopening for the majority of the country, there is a serious concern that stocks will crash much worse than what's been going on with the rollercoaster ride the last 6 weeks.
I know for many, the stock market is like some foreign place that speaks a weird language few can understand...and that sure feels like it for the most part...but keep in mind that when the stock market crashed back in 1929...it pretty much acted like an unintended sea anchor, and capsized the entire economy of the country.

I don't know if we will see that...but it's not at all farfetched. I know we are all about "saving lives" with the virus, but if we're just going to kill people off in a different and slower process via the collapse of the economy...what will really be saved...???

Oh...and the other Reuters news bit today said the USA has seen the worst rise in numbers the last couple of days since this started.
So again...when is that curve flattening going to actually start because we are all shutdown...?
 
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CoolCat

Well-known member
If they open back up to save the economy from tanking further into unemployment abyss, I'll still probably try to keep low social interactions and avoid the herds of goobers roaming around coughing and pretending its all normal. Just keep clean and try to stay out of the hospital, as usual...actually maybe put more effort than usual.

The brilliant minds are at work finding a vaccine and medicines for the herds of people who will benefit. Once thats accomplished it will be a game changer for this specific battle. Thats the hope...

the flipside of this is the Economy...its crazy.
My Trump check came and now wonder if the next one in May will be larger or smaller. (if there is one). A lot of business news getting worse by the day, but theres still a vibe that this isnt the Great Depression, and its not the 1918 Pandemic, its more like a 3 month shutdown with some relief approaching (at least until the next flu season). Thats my take on it today. Its like plans for June normalcy...

The local news had mile long wait line of cars in downtown Dallas for food handouts, and this is people with "cars and trucks"...the normal mass of homeless dont have cars and trucks obviously. National Guard in action doing the food handouts. Some friends have lost $200k or more, I didnt get hit like that, ...but for now seems the vibe is most are confident their retirement investments will return to normal. (hope is a good thing) Buy Low, Sell High.

22 million working stiffs laid off, but with extra $600 a week added to unemployment checks, a lot of car payments being forgive and some mortgages skipping a month ro three... seem to be helping the crisis. This whole thing is so wild and crazy, and Month 1 is nearing end around here. The "stay home" with Pay....and everyone looking to the Govt for the BIG BAILOUT CHECK, is interesting to watch, in addition to the laid off with UNemployment and an extra $600 a week.

can the Govt fund everyone again next month with $4 Trillion? that will be the big question.
Return to Business normalcy or send out Trillions in bailout funding, seems to be the choice.

But would that mean in May if things dont turn around? 44 million laid off by end of May?
Schools, Colleges, Hospitals, Airlines, Malls, and small business's , loans from the US Gov.......wow?...what a mess it would be in May.
Would the 401k retirement funds go from $200k loss to $400k losses?
in other words would everything "double" from Aprils numbers? Hard to imagine if that were to happen.
 

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
If they open back up to save the economy from tanking further into unemployment abyss, I'll still probably try to keep low social interactions and avoid the herds of goobers roaming around coughing and pretending its all normal. Just keep clean and try to stay out of the hospital, as usual...actually maybe put more effort than usual.

That's really the main thing...be more cautious and more vigilant with social hygiene practices...but there's no need for this shut-in mentality.
Some places that normally have packed crowds, will lose that ability or at least for the time being, have to keep things more conservative...but for the majority of work places, it's very possible to maintain some caution and distance, and still go about your daily work as usual.

I still feel that keeping healthy people locked up is going to backfire more than it is helping healthwise, because the virus hasn't gone away.
Then of course there is the legal, political and social aspect of forcing people to stay inside. Already some are considering it unconstitutional...but even beyond that, it's just not normal. Most people can only deal with being shut in for a shirt time...after that, they start climbing the walls.

For me it's never been a problem...I can stay home for weeks, and hate that I even have to go out to my mailbox...but that's different than being forced to stay inside. At least I have a pretty large house and large yard...plus, my street is a dead-end street, so I see the neighbor's kids outside riding their bikes, etc...but I can't imagine living in the city and having to stay in some small one-bedroom apartment for two months.
 
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