high gain guitar [repost]

[AphexTwin]

This post stalled on me... trying again

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I'm having a real tough time feeling good about my recorded sound. I'm running a 150W Mesa Triple Rec head through a mesa 4x12" cab. I love the sound that comes out when I play but...

For recording, I have a single SM57 sitting at the grille, pointed at 45 degrees to one of the speaker cones. The mic goes directly into a Behringer 1832FX Eurorack mixer and the direct channel outputs going into Nuendo via an Audigy 2.

The resulting sound I'm finding is very rough, and lacking fullness or definition. I'm fairly new to home recording, and my final tracks sound ok in the end, but I think there's a lot of room for improvement. That being said:

1) I've read several guides suggesting to pair the dynamic with a condenser situated a few feet from the cab to pick up the ambient sound, then phase-reversing and blending the signal from the condenser with the dynamic.

So, I'm looking for advice on which condenser to buy for this application. I'm considering spending no more than about $350US (less if I can get away with it... but part of me wants a KSM27/32 and I'm not quite sure why - I think I like the idea of a side address mic sitting in a shockmount), and I'm considering used mics. Suggestions? And does it matter between using a side address or directional condenser mics for this application? I really don't know the difference yet...

2) Is adding a condenser mic to my line likely to remedy my rough sound? Or, is this likely the result of a subobtimal mic preamp in the Behringer mixer? I'm not ready to upgrade the mixer just yet. Or, is there another problem I've likely overlooked? I'm certain that all the equipment is in top working order.

 

[Moonrider]

Go here:
http://www.badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html

Then pick up here for the continuation:
http://womb.mixerman.net/forumdisplay.php?f=10

 

[amra]

Well, the Mesa and the SM57 have both proven themselves capable of producing great sounding guitar. So I would suspec it is either your Mixer's preamps, or your choice of sound card, or more likely, BOTH that are keeping you from getting the sound you want.

When I upgraded to my first 24bit soundcard (an M-Audio) and to studio monitors instead of PC speakers, the improvement in my recordings was immediate and noticeable. That's would be my next two steps if I were you...,

 

[warble2]

Nuendo definitely isn't the weak link in your chain it's over $1000, isn't it? Seems weird to use it with an Audigy 2 soundcard and a Behringer mixer.

 

[HangDawg]

Well, the Mesa and the SM57 have both proven themselves capable of producing great sounding guitar. So I would suspec it is either your Mixer's preamps, or your choice of sound card, or more likely, BOTH that are keeping you from getting the sound you want.

When I upgraded to my first 24bit soundcard (an M-Audio) and to studio monitors instead of PC speakers, the improvement in my recordings was immediate and noticeable. That's would be my next two steps if I were you...,

I may be that $1500 worth of pirated software too! That's been known to cause problems in the past.

 

[Zed10R]

Well, the Mesa and the SM57 have both proven themselves capable of producing great sounding guitar. So I would suspec it is either your Mixer's preamps, or your choice of sound card, or more likely, BOTH that are keeping you from getting the sound you want.

When I upgraded to my first 24bit soundcard (an M-Audio) and to studio monitors instead of PC speakers, the improvement in my recordings was immediate and noticeable. That's would be my next two steps if I were you...,

What he said.

Improve your weakest elements first....and IMO that would be your sound card, your mixer, and possibly your monitors. Once you get those upgraded, I would suggest that you ditch your sm57 for a Sennheiser. 57's are ok and capable, but an MD421 or e906 will blow a 57 away.

Also, don't think that you must do any of this. You do not need top of the line gear to make good recordings. Take your time...experiment...learn how to best use what you have....first, try different mic positions. If your sound is hollow, put the mic more on axis. if it sounds too bright, put it more to the edge of the speker cone....

 

[Zed10R]

Nuendo definitely isn't the weak link in your chain it's over $1000, isn't it? Seems weird to use it with an Audigy 2 soundcard and a Behringer mixer.

Nuendo is of little or no consequence. The sound would be identical if he used a free version of Audacity. It's all 1's and 0's by the time it is recorded. What you pay for with recording software is different ways to manipulate the data you have recorded.

 

[warble2]

Nuendo is of little or no consequence. The sound would be identical if he used a free version of Audacity. It's all 1's and 0's by the time it is recorded. What you pay for with recording software is different ways to manipulate the data you have recorded.

Thanks for the lesson, however I do know that. My post is along the lines of what HangDawg is getting at.

 

[Zed10R]

Thanks for the lesson, however I do know that. My post is along the lines of what HangDawg is getting at.

It is amazing...baffling...incredible...and frightening...how may people DON'T know that. My comment was not intended to be condescending.....unless you happend to be one of those silly fools who can "hear" Protools.

 

[legionserial]

Few things....

How high is the gain exactly? You probably don't want it as high for recording as you play live. Don't have it cranked all the way. For high gain stuff I usually pull it back to 7 or just above. Just enough for you to be able to do what you want to do, without it being oversaturated. Once you have pulled it down enough for your liking, pull it down a gnats whisker more. Double tracking or layering your guitar tracks will compensate for the lower gain, whilst also remaining punchy and defined. Too much distortion will come out too fuzzy and ill defined, and it won't have enough....erm...oomph, especially with double tracking.

What are the EQ settings on your amp? Do you have enough midrange? A lot of people lower the mids on their amps when playing. Guitars mainly occupy midrange frequencies, so cutting them won't allow it to cut through in the mix, and from my experience, you get too much fuzz, and an abundance of low end which may well just be rolled off in mixing anyway.

Whereabouts on the speaker cone is the mic pointing?
How loud do you have your amp?
The sound you are getting from your amp may sound good to you, but where are you in relation to the speaker you are miking. If you put that speaker level with your head, does it still sound as good? Because that's what the mic is hearing.

You probably know all of this stuff already. In which case I apologise

 

[AphexTwin]

Thanks for all the useful replies.

I just came back from the music store and got some additional opinions. I'm fine with the 57 for now, but I might opt to pair it with a Rode NT-3 condenser. I think I'll also shop around for a separate mic preamp, since I have noticed a lot of noise with the mixer's preamp.

I should have specified earlier that I'm not overly impressed with the sound quality when monitoring though the mixer, so I'm troubleshooting my line up to that point. The Audigy came with the computer and for now, since I'm only recording single tracks, I can't justify buying a delta 1010 just yet.

Legionserial,

I've been dual-layering my rhythm tracks. And I tend to record with the mids bumped on the amp, dialing back the bass and treble (i.e. 7-7-6). I play mostly at practice volume, maybe a little higher... nothing close to rehearsal volume. Mic is aimed about 1" off center from the cone at a 45 degree angle.

Like I said, the overall quality of the mixes aren't bad... I think I've got most of these basics down. Mostly I'm being picky about trying to match the sound coming directly off the board to the sound I hear just playing. It feels like the mic is only picking up the crunchy "core" of the sound, and losing the smooth finishes. I'm not really sure about how else to describe it. Instinct tells me that what I'm missing from the 57 is ambience.

 

[cusebassman]

A separate pre will probably make a noticeable difference, if for nothing more than getting rid of noise... I recently upgraded from using my Behringer UB-series pres to using an M-Audio DMP-3, and the difference is vast.

Also, might I recommend one of the other Rode condensers if you are going that route... I have the NT-3, and it is a very good mic for certain applications, but I find it is too directional to pick up the ambient sound of the amp with respect to the room. I prefer the K2, and before that the NT1-A I was using (which sounds very full and clear considering the small price tag

The one thing to note about the DMP-3 is that phantom power is only switchable for the entire unit... so if you want to use the SM-58 (which can't have phantom on) on one channel, you would have to have the condenser running into a different pre since it will most likely require phantom (any of the Rodes like the NT1-A will... although the NT-3 can also run on battery, hmm...)

 

[HangDawg]

The one thing to note about the DMP-3 is that phantom power is only switchable for the entire unit... so if you want to use the SM-58 (which can't have phantom on) on one channel, you would have to have the condenser running into a different pre since it will most likely require phantom (any of the Rodes like the NT1-A will... although the NT-3 can also run on battery, hmm...)

Uhhhhmmmmm! phantom power will not in any way hurt a SM-58 or most any dynamic mic for that matter. Where did you get such an idea?