Help a poor aussie find an acoustic guitar mic...

[robjh22]

Thanks. I'll do it. As I was agonizing about whether to get SD or
LD mikes and how many, etc., I rememberd an astonishing interview in guitar player magazine of the lead guitar player in Linda Ronstadt's band. He purposefully played Silvertones and no-name cheapo guitars on stage and said something to the effect of: "It's ridiculous how expensive name brand guitars are getting, and a lot of our fans out there can't afford them. So why do I have to play one?"

Struck me dumb.

It may not relate to microphones, but I think it's important for people like me to keep perspective: get the music as good as you can get it, and get the nicest stuff you can afford, and nicer if you really want, but don't agonize about it and don't kid yourself into thinking it's going to make or break you as an emerging talent if the roll off on your mike isn't "perfect."

 

[robjh22]

Thanks. I'll do it. As I was agonizing about whether to get SD or
LD mikes and how many, etc., I rememberd an astonishing interview in guitar player magazine of the lead guitar player in Linda Ronstadt's band. He purposefully played Silvertones and no-name cheapo guitars on stage and said something to the effect of: "It's ridiculous how expensive name brand guitars are getting, and a lot of our fans out there can't afford them. So why do I have to play one?"

Struck me dumb.

It may not relate to microphones, but I think it's important for people like me to keep perspective: get the music as good as you can get it, and get the nicest stuff you can afford, and nicer if you really want, but don't agonize about it and don't kid yourself into thinking it's going to make or break you as an emerging talent if the roll off on your mike isn't "perfect."

 

[Aren]

Oh, of course not!
A good song is a good song no matter how it was recorded.
If the arrangement is good, the song usually mixes itself.
If you ever listen to songs posted in the MP3 clinic, I bet you listened to songs by Erland. The guy started with a cheap Shure dynamic (606) and got an amazing sound out of it. Today he uses some Brand X LD condenser and also sounds great.
New/better mics (or any other piece of gear, for that matter) may make it easier for you to get the sound you want, but mic placement, arrangement, playing technique and feel are a lot more important.

Oren

 

[Armistice]

Ausrock

Always open for suggestions - I'm currently going:

NT5s / MXL603s --> Presonus MP20 --> Yamaha AW4416 (bypassing internal pres)

Also use a Mindprint Envoice as a pre sometimes.

Cables are just the standard 30' mic cable you get anywhere.

I also own a Rode NT2.

Now that you know everything about what I'm using, as well as what I'm trying to record, what would you recommend?

What do you do up there in Newcastle anyway? You seem to know a hell of a lot about this stuff, do you have a (commercial) studio or are you a hobbyist like most of us? As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm willing to part with money to get recorded in a "real" studio - the knowledge I'd get out of it would be worth it I think.

Know anyone in Sydney you'd recommend?

Tipping Knights v. Brisbane RL grand final incidentally...

 

[ausrock]

Armi,

This may sound silly, but I frequently run on instinct and gut feelings once I understand what my ears are telling me...............yeah, I know........real scientific .

I saw someone (in the last few days here), suggest getting someone to play guitar while you move all around it, listening for the places where you hear either the sweet spots or the sound you would like to capture. Obviously, if you are trying to record by yourself, this is near impossible, but is a technique I have been using for some time...............as an example, I was trying to capture the sound of a Maton EM225C (the low end model), and I went all around the bloody guitar, in very close and out as far as I thought was reasonable for "semi-close" micing............I ended up using a pair of Behringer ECM8000's.........one in line with the neck joint, the other 1" from the face of the headstock. The guitarist was warned not to swing back and forth while he played. BTW, the Behringers aren't normally my first choice for acoustic!!!

That particular guitar let the sound resonate through the neck and the headstock was almost acting like a speaker................however, I have tried the same mic positions with an EM325C, an EM525C and ECW80C and none of them gave the same results, so these days I make a point of doing the walk around first, putting my ears anywhere where a mic might be positioned.

If you feel that you have a reasonable feel for the characteristics of the NT5's and 603's, I would honestly be getting someone in to play while you spend time checking out how the guitar sounds...............in front, behind, above, below..........in very close and maybe out as far as 2 feet. It is important to do this where you are going to record as I have also found that the sound you hear may vary depending on the rooms acoustic reaction as you move the playing position, then make a decision on which mic(s) you feel would work in the positions you have chosen..........it really pays to take time and experiment each time you intend recording.

No, I don't have a commercial studio. I set up our facility mainly for my son's band, although I do have the odd outsider come in to record. I started playing guitar as a kid 41 yrs ago, so delving into recording over the last 2 or 3 years was just a way of continuing the love affair with music. Currently I run through a Soundcraft console (that badly needs a service) directly into and out of a Fostex D160 16 track H/disk recorder. Hopefully over the next few months I will have added some Neve based pre's as well as some full tube pre's.............not that I have any huge complaints about the S/craft's pre's, but I do need some options available to me, plus there is slow progress with acoustic improvements.

I don't know enough about the studios down your way to recommend anyone...............I guess a lot depends on what your goals are for your recording and what you are willing to pay out. I have been hearing whispers about MilkBar Studios at Camperdown......... http://www.milkbarstudios.tv/ ............the nearest I have had direct experience with is Cloud Studios at Tuggerah. Parris McCloud (sp) is a bit of a tripper but a nice guy and the setup is a John Sayers design. Troy Cassar-Daley and the Screaming Jets are just two acts that have recorded there. Of course there is also Gary Beers' (INXS) Mangrove Studio at Mangrove Mountain........it has been getting a good rep over the last couple of years too.

Knights and Brisbane Broncos, hmmmmmmmm......................I don't think I will pass comment

 

[joro]

I use a Rode NT1 through a MX602A flat lined with my Taylor...

mic angled with the cone down.....dot pointed at the 12th fret about 4 inches away...

I just picked up a MK-219...but the Rode seems to do the job very well......Ill try both at the same time too...we shall see...

Lots to choose from out there though...
Joe

 

[SteveMcB]

A pair of MXL603's can be had for around $300 AU new with cables... How do I know? I got a pair (not matched) over ebay a few months ago over ebay for $330 New Zealand including shipping. The seller was the Abemusic ebay store, and they were great. So for the price of one, you can get 2! I don't know what the Aussie customs rules are like, but here if it's under $400 you don't get customs on it, so check the australian rules before trying the ebay route, but it's worth thinking about. But then there is the slight risk of dealing on Ebay. I love my 603's, and my pre's are mackie mixer pres.

Good luck,
Steve

P.S. Ve vill not talk about ze rugby - I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it!

 

[Armistice]

Steve...

At this point in time, seeing we still hold the Bledisloe Cup....

Actually I think we've Buckley's chance on Saturday, or whenever it is, and the silverware will wing its way back to your neck of the woods... probably not before time, we've been playing like dogs for a few years now.

Everyone keeps saying they love their MXL603s so I'll persist with them - just wondering what else I can tweak - maybe it's something else. Cables perhaps?

Interesting news on the prices - if you can find them in stores they retail at $269 as I think Ausrock pointed out - take of the usual 15 - 20% discount and at best you're still talking more than $200 a piece, no cable included.

I guess, in the scheme of things, they cost little compared to what I've spent elsewhere on gear.

Aus...

I don't have the luxury of having someone play for me, so I think I may have to go back to my original method of just describing the position relative to the guitar and working from there. It seems that, despite all my bitching about these things, I was getting better results before than I am now. I'm very impatient with this sort of stuff. If I ever find the sweet spot I think I'll be nailing the mic stand and chair to the floor!

I've been playing a mere 25 years myself - seemed like the thing to do to pick up chicks at the time, and all my friends were, so I had to as well... never was a much of a chick-pulling tool, but there were other compensations..

 

[ausrock]

Armi,

The only other silly idea I have is partly dependant on how many tracks you can record similtaneously.

If 4 tracks is feasable, set up the 2 Rode and 2 603'S all equi-distant from each other so that when you sit in front of them, they are all the same distance from the guitar and for the first take, all in line with the strings.......just at different points along the strings' length. Subsequent takes could see the mics moved in closer or further away......higher or lower, etc., AND I KNOW there would be a difference between the Rodes and MXL's, but this may start to give you an idea of the projection characteristics on the guitar.

Time consuming?.............Yep, but if you keep an accurate record of things it could be worth it.

What do you mean about getting better results before than you are now? If you were using a different guitar before, then that doesn't surprise me..............I have never been a fan of the Messiahs,, but that is probably just a personal thing.

 

[Armistice]

Aus

The better results were pre the Messiah - I think my impatience may be getting the better of me, unfortunately - originally when I started doing this with the NT5s I managed to get results which weren't too bad - still that frequency thing I complain about, but OK-ish.

Your suggestion is a good one - I actually, by nature, have a very analytical and scientific brain, so "experimenting" in this fashion should be a good indicator. I can record 8 tracks at a time on the AW4416 - not sure how many leads I have though!

I think the other thing that gets me is the two mics syndrome - sometimes the combined result is relatively pleasing when panned hard L & R, but when I cut one out and pan the other to centre so I can try to "improve" the EQ, I'm struck by how godawful it sounds - perhaps going back to one mic at a time is also a good idea - get one right before worrying about two.

The Messiah is gorgeous to play - mellower by far than the CW80, which has harsh tendencies (at least mine does) - I traded my 325 in on it. Whether this translates into better recordings, of course, is another matter entirely - but god I love playing it, and so it unleashes the creative side of me.

I never liked the old style Messiahs with block inlays etc - they've changed that now and it's a much better looking guitar - pull it out of the case and I definitely get a "wow" reaction from people just looking at it.

Put Fender strings on both the other day because I picked some up for $10 - sound OK but so bad on the friction noise - seems like the relief contour down the length of the string is higher than other brands so they're significantly harder to slide up and down on - plus noisier of course - will go back to normal D'Addarios where I started I think.

Back to the drawing boards, I guess. I will get this sorted out one day, and when I do will write the definitive "how to" guide!

I often found that putting a totally clean single pole electric guitar (using a Levinson Blade through a Laney all tube 30W combo) behind acoustics, playing exactly the same thing, gives an interesting and unique tone to the combined total - you have to duplicate pretty exactly, and you don't use much fader volume at all for the electric - maybe I should make that "my sound"!

Incidentally, if you're interested in what I've previously done, I'm happy to send you a free CD - I've released 2 to date - all through el-cheapo Takamine straight to Roland VS840 via pickup.

Send me a PM if you're interested and I'll wing one up to you to any address you nominate - least I can do considering the amount of time you've spent trying to help me! Not offended if you don't want one, of course.

Cheers

 

[DJL]

(603's are too expensive here)

Keep an eye on ebay for them.

 

[Markd102]

Hi Guys.
My best results with an acoustic have come by putting an LD (V67M) on the bridge, and an SD (Beyer Opus83) on the 12th frett. Also sticking as close as I can to the 3-1 rule.

Main two guitars I record are a Maton 12 tring and an Ibanez 6 string.

I'm not a guitarist myself, but I've had compliments from many who are on the sounds I'm getting.

Mark

 

[Flatpicker]

Hey, Armistice.
Check out my “Oktava MK012 From G.C.” thread.
How much do those cost in Oz?

 

[ausrock]

FP,

The Oktava 012's have a RRP (list) of $795 Aust., each and I know of one place that has them on special for $495 Aust. And this is for the single capsule package, I recall seeing somewhere that the mic with all 3 capsules was in excess of $1200 Aust.


Armisice was kind enough t send me a copy of a CD he did back in '99 which arrived earlier today and is playing through the Tannoys as I type................all I can say is FUCKIN' GREAT!!!!!

 

[Armistice]

Thanks Ausrock - you're too kind!

Now if only I could sell some of the damn things! I sell about one a year through www.guitar9.com at the moment - and I can't remember the last time I sold one through ChaosMusic.

I mainly sell them to friends etc... I was born without the sales and marketing gene!

Cheers

Armistice

 

[ausrock]

I was quite serious................I have played it 3 or 4 times now and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I just put a thread up in the Mp3 forum here linking to one of our recordings, so if you wish to pass comment the thread is there.

 

[Armistice]

Glad you like it - I still have 250 of them in my wardrobe!

Believe it or not, my PC is a Pentium 75 with Win 95 which is entirely incapable of downloading and/or playing MP3s - I tend to spend my money on guitars rather than computers, but I really must upgrade because I'd love to hear what fellow boardmembers are up to.

Hoping to do album #3 by Christmas, really need to get my A into G though, you can see why this whole mic recording thing is getting to me - thought it'd be easy! I have all my uptempo tunes recorded, but none of the solo acoustic stuff.

Going to spend all of Saturday at the mics, working along the lines you've suggested to see if I can't get something usable. I'll let you know how it goes - in the meantime, if you can think of anything I could do with 250 copies of that album, I'm happy to listen!

Cheers

Armistice

 

[Armistice]

Eureka!

Hey Aus, you still out there?

After a couple of days of mucking around, here's what I tried tonight.

#1 channel - MXL603s - level with 9th fret, 9 inches above fretboard, 6 inches out from fretboard and pointing vertically straight at the ground - into Mindprint Envoice channel strip / pre, just using the pre section - into AW4416 bypassing onboard pre

#2 channel - MXL603s - level with 6th fret, 3 inches out from fret board, at fretboard height, pointing straight at strings (ie right angle) - into MP20 pre max gain into AW4416 bypassing onboard pre

#3 channel (don't know how I dreamt this one up!) - pickup from Messiah with bass flat, touch of mid cut at 1.5, and treble at +8 into DI box located halfway up the hall, from DI into spare bedroom (only did this to extend the lead length) into Laney 30W single speaker combo tube amp (has a beautiful clean sound - meant to be AC30ish - not that I'd know - and I know you shouldn't put acoustics into electric guitar amps, but it's all I have) - settings clean channel, touch of spring reverb, treble boosted to about 3 o'clock, mid at 12 o'clock and bass at 9 o'clock - in front of which I have Rode NT2 about 6 inches out from speaker - which goes back down the hall into other MP20 channel which, because I can only get 2 channels into AW4416 bypassing the pres, goes into channel three on the machine through the pre on low setting (no gain problems on this channel!). Had choice of 10dB pad on NT2 or 20 on the MP20 - did the MP20 - got a better "structure" to it - harder to clip.

Because I have the amp volume quite low, with the door shut, I can't hear it down in the living room where I'm playing the guitar, and neither can the MXL603ss.

Without a doubt this is the closest I've come yet to getting the sound I'm looking for - and it's the amped channel that makes the difference - pan channel 1 hard L (it's got much more gain than 2), channel 2 hard right, and 3 halfway right, balanced the volumes etc.

Haven't even touched the EQ and I've got this beautiful full sound sans the middy harshness I've been struggling with all this time. If I take channel 3 out of the mix, it sounds better than I've had before, but still a little dull. It seems to somehow be filling in the bits that are missing, though when you listen to it on your own it ain't that flash, quite frankly.

I'll keep playing with settings on the couple of minutes of Dust in the Wind that I've recorded as a test, but for the first time I'm actually not wincing when I listen through the monitors.

WOOHOO!

Have noted every setting and knob and position - I may not be able to leave the house again in case I move anything - will have to send out for food, throw in job and become recluse...

Have turned everything off until tomorrow - have found that "morning after" ears are much less forgiving on sound - hopefully I'll be a happy chappy then... I'll let you know.

Cheers

Armistice

 

[ausrock]

Armi,

Great to hear. I'll keep my fingers continually crossed for you.

Your CD has had a workout since it arrived

 

[Flatpicker]

...-in the meantime, if you can think of anything I could do with 250 copies of that album, I'm happy to listen!

Sell 'em at the gigs, man!