God and Philosophy

32-20-Blues

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I recently heard a philosophy student whom I am friendly with explain her disbelief in God with the following logical progression:

According to the Catechism of Christian Doctrine, God is everywhere.

This means that God is in this room right now.

Can you see him? No.

Can you hear him? No.

Can you smell him? No.

Can you touch him? No.

With this in mind, how does the state of God being present differ from the state of him not being present?

It doesn't.

This, for her, is enough not to believe.
 
but if as has been claimed by the religious, God is ALWAYS present, how does one know what the state of his absence is like? so how can one say that his presence and absence are the same?
 
I recently heard a philosophy student whom I am friendly with explain her disbelief in God with the following logical progression:

According to the Catechism of Christian Doctrine, God is everywhere.

This means that God is in this room right now.

Can you see him? No.

Can you hear him? No.

Can you smell him? No.

Can you touch him? No.

With this in mind, how does the state of God being present differ from the state of him not being present?

It doesn't.

This, for her, is enough not to believe.

Does she also not believe in electromagnetic energy, and fine particulate matter?

Edit: you don't really have to answer that. I'm just being a smart ass.
 
Does she also not believe in electromagnetic energy, and fine particulate matter?

Edit: you don't really have to answer that. I'm just being a smart ass.

No, I'll bite. The absence of electromagnetic energy isn't the same as the presence of it, because its presence can be measured.

Not that much of a smart ass. J/K :D
 
but if as has been claimed by the religious, God is ALWAYS present, how does one know what the state of his absence is like? so how can one say that his presence and absence are the same?

Well, I would contend that the state of his absence is interchangable with the state of his presence, since when present he is unquantifiable in every sense.

On the basis that his presence is intangible - or unquantifiable - in every way, God always being present isn't manifestly different to him not being present.
 
To reiterate my stance in a post in the other thread..

The stories in the bible, IMO, are just that. Stories. Stories with a moral and a message. We aren't supposed to take them too literally. But we do, and we end up beleiving in magic powers, hierarchies etc etc. When you take them literally, they are going to conflict, because it is my beleif that they weren't intended to be taken that way.

My interpretation is that to get to heaven, or utopia, we need to be good to each other. But heaven is not a place you get to. It isn't something that happens when you die. The idea is for it to happen during your life. If everyone was good to each other, if everyone looked after each other, we wouldn't have to worry about getting into heaven, we'd already be there.

Heaven is a place you have to make.

Yes, god exists, in a way. He exists in the minds of those that beleive in him. His power is merely the belief in him acting as a catalyst for self belief. I'm all for that. I've seen faith save lives. People don't want to believe that they alone have the power to turn their life around, to save their life, to overcome difficulty. So they let their own power manifest itself anthropomorphically, as a deity.

But there is a point where it gets silly. And people start believing in all the fire and brimstone crap. Beleif in another source of positive energy is good. Believe in hell, fire and brimstone, and eternal damnation, the original sin, all that negative depressing crap is pointless. I think it's dumb.

Positive = good. Negative = bad. That's why I have problems with Catholicism, because it copncentrates so much on the negative aspects.
 
With this in mind, how does the state of God being present differ from the state of him not being present?

That's begging the question. To answer it you'd have to come up with a God-detector of some sort, and if it worked and you didn't find God then you'd prove He existed because there was a unique attribute of His you'd be measuring, and if it did find God, well, you found God.

Therefore asking the question without trying to answer it is intentioinally presupposing there is no God.
 
Well, I would contend that the state of his absence is interchangable with the state of his presence, since when present he is unquantifiable in every sense.

On the basis that his presence is intangible - or unquantifiable - in every way, God always being present isn't manifestly different to him not being present.

for a long time oxygen in the air was unquantifiable. does that mean it didn't exist until we learned how to prove it's presence and measure it?
 
That's begging the question. To answer it you'd have to come up with a God-detector of some sort, and if it worked and you didn't find God then you'd prove He existed because there was a unique attribute of His you'd be measuring, and if it did find God, well, you found God.

Therefore asking the question without trying to answer it is intentioinally presupposing there is no God.

I understand this analogy. You would prove the existence of god even if you didn't find him with this device because in order for the device to work there has to be some attribute of god for it to measure. What I don;t understand is when i'm talking to someone and I tell them I don't believe in god, they tell me that by making that statement I'm actually confirming my belief in him. Do you know what they're talking about, and could you explain that logic? It sounds like some sort of Orwellian doublespeak to me.
 
That's begging the question. To answer it you'd have to come up with a God-detector of some sort, and if it worked and you didn't find God then you'd prove He existed because there was a unique attribute of His you'd be measuring, and if it did find God, well, you found God.

Therefore asking the question without trying to answer it is intentioinally presupposing there is no God.

It's raising a question that begs an answer, certainly. I do not, however, under the terms I have set out, need to prove God's presence, or lack thereof.

Rather, I can point out that under the criteria laid down by both the Catechism (He is everywhere) and human experience (you can't see him, etc), there is no difference between him being there and him not being there.

Whether he is there or not, is for another day (and that's when your God detecting machine comes into play). At the moment, I can say that there is no difference between him being there and not.
 
Well people were breathing back then, so it existed.

:) yeah, i was saying that just because we can't quantify God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. there's a lot of things we haven't been able to quantify until long after we theorized their existence so i would find that argument too weak to base a belief or lack of it on.
 
I know god exists because I've seen him


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What I don't understand is when i'm talking to someone and I tell them I don't believe in god, they tell me that by making that statement I'm actually confirming my belief in him. Do you know what they're talking about, and could you explain that logic? It sounds like some sort of Orwellian doublespeak to me.

I don't understand it either. Not believing in unicorns doesn't confirm their existence.

They were probably referring to ontological proofs, but I don't find them very compelling.
 
They were probably referring to ontological proofs, but I don't find them very compelling.

Neither do I.

Although I have been faced with the argument in the past.

Can I ask, apl, did you always have faith, since you were younger, or did it come to you over time? Or, was the realisation sudden?

For some reason, I can't decide to believe. Does that make sense?
 
If god was up to date...

Thank you for calling Universal Management Services.

God is unavailable to take your call at this time as he is experiencing higher then normal call volumes.

If you know the extension you wish to reach, please enter it now.

For god, press 18

For Jesus, press 007

For Buddha, Press his bellybutton.

And for Satan, press 666

Your call may be monitored to ensure quality care.

Goodbye! :)
 
I understand this analogy. You would prove the existence of god even if you didn't find him with this device because in order for the device to work there has to be some attribute of god for it to measure. What I don;t understand is when i'm talking to someone and I tell them I don't believe in god, they tell me that by making that statement I'm actually confirming my belief in him. Do you know what they're talking about, and could you explain that logic? It sounds like some sort of Orwellian doublespeak to me.

it's an old philosophy 101 trick.

The crux is that all positive attributes also must contain the possiblity for their opposite.

i.e: The sun is shining. This statement implies that at one point the sun was not shining.

Unicorns do not exist. This statement must contain the possibility that unicorns do exist.

yes it seems bizarre. But it is a semantic argument. It's a question of linguistics more than truth.

What you're saying is "unicorns DO not exist" They (unicorns) DO (positive affirmation of the follwing verb) not exist. So they DO "not exist". it's trickery of the highest order.

But, like most Phil 101 linguistical trampolining, it never truly serves the dicussion. It's usually how linguistics guys attack metaphysical arguments.



[EDIT: I did a bit more research and found the reference. Heraclitus (of the "step in the same river twice" fame) created the Doctrine of Flux, and it's subsection "Unity of opposites." This is where the notion of positives implying their negatives came from. Incidentally, there are some catholic notions that touch on this, although i can't be bothered to dig THOSE up. ]
 
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Can I ask, apl, did you always have faith, since you were younger, or did it come to you over time? Or, was the realisation sudden?

Both, I guess. I've pretty much always believed in something, as a really little kid I prayed before bedtime under direction from my parents and expected I was talking to God, as a school age kid it was Christianity, in High School it got very vague, first time around in college it got even vaguer but the faith I have now came like a bolt out of the blue, relatively speaking, over about fifteen minutes in the summer of 1982.
 
That's begging the question. To answer it you'd have to come up with a God-detector of some sort, and if it worked and you didn't find God then you'd prove He existed because there was a unique attribute of His you'd be measuring, and if it did find God, well, you found God.

Therefore asking the question without trying to answer it is intentioinally presupposing there is no God.
I read it much the same but with the only logical presumption that there is a God. Sophists and scientists alike describe a model in the belief they can prove it rather than disprove. To my mind she has started from the point that there is a God in an attempt to prove that He doesn't exist.

In any event I think it has more to do with philosophy and sophistry than theology.
 
I don't understand it either. Not believing in unicorns doesn't confirm their existence.

They were probably referring to ontological proofs, but I don't find them very compelling.

From the link you posted:

Descartes wrote in the Fifth Meditation:[3]

But if the mere fact that I can produce from my thought the idea of something entails that everything which I clearly and distinctly perceive to belong to that thing really does belong to it, is not this a possible basis for another argument to prove the existence of God? Certainly, the idea of God, or a supremely perfect being, is one that I find within me just as surely as the idea of any shape or number. And my understanding that it belongs to his nature that he always exists is no less clear and distinct than is the case when I prove of any shape or number that some property belongs to its nature (AT 7:65; CSM 2:45

Whatever method of proof I use, I am always brought back to the fact that it is only what I clearly and distinctly perceive that completely convinces me. Some of the things I clearly and distinctly perceive are obvious to everyone, while others are discovered only by those who look more closely and investigate more carefully; but once they have been discovered, the latter are judged to be just as certain as the former. In the case of a right-angled triangle, for example, the fact that the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the square on the other two sides is not so readily apparent as the fact that the hypotenuse subtends the largest angle; but once one has seen it, one believes it just as strongly. But as regards God, if I were not overwhelmed by philosophical prejudices, and if the images of things perceived by the senses did not besiege my thought on every side, I would certainly acknowledge him sooner and more easily than anything else. For what is more manifest than the fact that the supreme being exists, or that God, to whose essence alone existence belongs, exists? (AT 7:68–69; CSM 2:47)


So basically he is using his idea of god as proof that god exists. Because if god did not exist he would not be able to come up with the concept of god.

For some reason this reminds me of an incident from when I was a kid. My dad came home with a mounted jackalope. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackalope) Anyway based on the fact that there was the head of one mounted on the wall in my house, I was absolutely convinced that jackalopes existed, after all I'd seen one. I was quite disappointed to learn a couple of years later that jackalopes do not exist. This example shows that the concept for something can exist without there being a true physical (or metaphysical) being.
 
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