emagic's "Logic Control" and how I could fit it into my scenerio.

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pisces7378

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Alright guys,

I just bought the update from emagic for my Logic Audio Platinum 4.8.1 to 5.0. It is in the mail and I cannot fucking wait to try the new automation and the new plug ins. I will be like a kid in a candy store.
Now I have been eyeballing the "Logic Control" hardware control unit. Now it runs at around $900-$1,000 so needless to say I am going to be damn sure that I want it before I go and buy it. Now I am getting the Mackie 32 Channel 8 Bus recording console. So that will take care of the mixing functions going IN to my MOTU 24i audio system. What about coming out for final mixdown? Is that where the Logic Conrol would come in handy?

What I mean is... would my Mackie 32 Channel 8 bus mixer be able to do everything that the Logic Controler could do as far as a mix down is concerned? I mean... I know that the Logic Controler has automated faders and can control the plug ins etc. The Mackie 32*8 has no automation, and can't control the software, but surely it would somehow be able to mix things down to the HDD.

I think I am a bit confused on "Native" and "Non-Native" issues. When I am using the Logic Controler, then the software is running 100% native??? As in, all effects are coming only from the plug ins (no outside rack stuff). But with the Mackie 32*8 I would have more oppertunity to run things "Non-Native" as in using outboard effects units etc.?
I know this question is totally general and doesn't seem to have a real solid focus... but that is just because I am really trying to see clearly weather or not this Logic Control would be something that I would NEED, or if I am just addicted to knobs. I am just fuck all sick and tired of using my mouse to tweak little virtual knobs.

Having the Mackie 32*8 mixer... would the "Logic Control" be a waste of $$$?

Mike
 
I think the controller would be a waste of money. It's best not to rely on computer DAW's to handle too much of the processing without dedicated DSP hardware like you would have in a ProTools TDM system.

You should use the DAW as a recorder and keep all the channels at unity. For mixdown you should route out of the MOTU and into the mackie. Do all your volume, panning and as much effect processing as possible with the Mackie. Then route your master outs back into the DAW to record the mixdown.

It's okay to so some processing in the DAW and use plug ins, EQ, etc. But in general the less processing you do on the DAW the more pristine your tracks will be. Especially if you are doing full 24track mixes.
 
Do all your volume, panning and as much effect processing as possible with the Mackie.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that negate one of the major benefits of using a DAW - automation?
 
"Wouldn't that negate one of the major benefits of using a DAW - automation?"

True. But it would counter the greatest flaw of PC DAW's, poor DSP. That is why home recordings dont sound as good as a ProTools TDM recording.

But if he wants to do automated mixes than why buy a 32.8 Mackie? I would rather do the mix manually and not sacrifice sound quality. You might want to look at the Spirit M boards in that price range also.

This is all somewhat subjective and depends on the application. If I was doing film mixes than automation would be an absolute life saver. For rock or acoustic music I would rather not loose any of the tone of the original tracks.

I use a digital mixer so I sort of have the best of both worlds. But I want to get a better analog mixer instead.
 
whats the 32 channel 8 bus? I don't see it on the website...

And why would it neccessarily have better DSP than a nice PC?

I've basically come to the point where I am going to use PC for my stuff...and do all of my mixing on it etc...and learn how to mix....

and not worry about the weak dsp factor -becuase that's all I can do.

I see it the same way as not having the Neve pres, or the Neumann mics or whatever else...it's just another separation.

But, it's also gear that doesn't gaurantee a good result. Someone who really knows what they are doing can still get a great sounding mix, even with loads of DSP done on a PC.

And, in the end - that person, when they can afforf Protools HD, and the Neumanns - will get the superb results.

But, if that Mackie is better, certainly..use it. Anything that improves quality is worth the time.
 
Not a waste of money!!! 1 Logic controller gives you hands on acces to nearly every Logic 5 function, plus the automation (Track, effect,MIDI, and instrument), plus full MIDI implentation (for us DieHard knob tweakers). Transport controls, Jog/Shuttle etc. etc. And most importantly, Logic Control is a Mackie. I could see this as a worthy investment (seems the next closest thing is the Radikal SAK2K Controller for 2x the $). Of course no matter what you decide there is never a reason for you to get rid of your 32-8...ever. It is a great sounding board, and there is absolutely no reason why you couldn't utilize the best of both worlds. All that would be needed are some decent interfaces.
 
dsp?

Could someone tell me what dsp is? Im going to be doing all my recording/mixing/master onto a computer. Through a mackie mixing board, onto a delta 44. then i would use sound forge and logic audio most likely, maybe a bit of acid. But, what is this dsp? is that somethin to do with the quality of the softwear? Your saythings this, protools, or something, has a good dsp? Is protools softwear? and why is its dsp better than other programs, like logic audio. And what is a dsp!
 
DSP is Digital Signal Processing. Anytime you use a computer to make any type of changes to audio (volume, pan, effects, etc) it has to go through DSP.

In the case of home PC recording your PC is doing all the DSP and it also has to do all the other processing duties required for the OS, graphics, etc.

ProTools TDM sytems use dedicated hardware to do all of the DSP so that the computer just handles the graphics and the audio hardware handles all of the DSP. Audio specific processors handle audio much better than a PC.

The reason many prefer an analog mixer for mixdown is that the computer doesnt have to worry about volume and pan and the mixer can handle those chores.

I cant imagine trying to mix music without a mixer. To me mixing is as much of a performance as anything else and the mixer is your instrument. Entering automation data on a DAW is like step inputting midi data. The notes are there but the feeling is gone.
 
hnn

i don't understand what people mean when they say they mixdown on the mixer. Like, a mixing board, like the mackie 12x2 one?
 
Ambi- that is correct. You route your sound card outputs to the mixer then send the master buss of the mixer back into the sound card. While you are mixing you record the master buss to a new stereo track for your final mixdown file.
 
Exactly, but with say the 12x2 your only mixing 12 channels into 2, whereas a computer may use as many as 128 or so channels being mixed down to one stereo pair. I agree though mixing is a dying art, some of the most fun I've had recording (and headaches for that matter), have been tweaking my old tascam 4 tracks knobs into the wee hours of the A.M. Automation was born out of neccasity for those that did actually require tons of tracks. And I believe that if you can do the job without automation, then you should because the more you actually get your fingers turning them old knobs the better you will be. It will even make those mixes that you turn to automation for help, sound better too. This is where the likes of the Logic Control come in handy. Don't step edit or "Draw" your automation if possible. Record your automations (even if only a handful of tracks at a time), in real time. Most sequencer packages will record fader and knob moves on their virtual mixers in realtime. You can record several different mixes, and can go back and fix those that are not perfect to your liking (Or your clients liking). Automation is a tool, one that can be used and abused, like anything else. some say it's the lazy way. I say it is 1 more tool that allows me (Musician first and foremost, Engineer second), to increase productivity, and not stall my creative flow because I am to busy tweaking sounds. I lay em down, record some fader moves to balance levels and pan, and when everything is finished or whenever else I want to just go back and change the way something sits in the mix, I can just do a little tweaking, and than I can forget about it and move on to more writing and recording. My 2 Cents.
 
Good input.

I wouldnt really consider a Mackie 1202 a mixdown mixer since it doesnt even have faders and it is really intended as a submixer for tracking or live use. The real limitation is in your sound card outputs.

Skippy (our digital guru) was posting awhile back that he noticed a degradation in sound quality anytime you combined more than 6 tracks to a PC mix buss. His solution was to submix in groups of 6 and run them through an external convertor and rerecord them as a stereo sub mix.

I try to do something similiar with my VM3100Pro. It has an 8x8 digital buss with the sound card so I can sub mix up to 8 groups and then mix them on the Roland and rerecord the mix onto Logic. I find that I like to use buss submixes anyway so it suits my style. It's pretty often that you can group your drums, rythm guitars, backing vocals, etc all onto their own sub mix busses.

One thing people forget is that just running your audio through a good mixer can actually improve the overall sound of your mixes. Different mixers impart their own sound signature to your work and can make the difference between a good mix and a great mix. I find that a good analog mixer can help 'glue' the entire sound together by imparting it's own color across all the tracks.
 
hnn

ok, im sure thats all good advice and correct, but it makes absolutly no sense. Define mixdown? what is that? I don't understnad why you would go from computer-mixing board-computer.
your just re-recording the exact same thing back onto the computer? and it would be worst quality, considering the loss if signal from the various connections? I don't understand the point in this, or what the mixer would do to the mix? So basically, if i have my song in logic audio, with the bass line track, the drum track, the vocal track, etc... bunch of tracks. Why don't i just bounce them into a wav file, and then im done? If you could explain what this mixer does, id apricate it. I would consider the step up of the mackie mixer, the one with sliders, if it would be more useful, and would a delta 66, with the spdf outs work with the mixing board?
 
If I may. Going Computer-Mixer-Computer is often the best way to go. I almost always do.

First of all, If you take care of your jacks and cabling, and keep everything tidy and clean, you will introduce VERY Little, if any noise (This is where gain staging for best S/N ratio comes in too, something you don't learn on a PC's mixer). Running through the mixer allows you to use the mixers EQ and effects sends for processing audio with hardware effects, all removing the strain on our computers, which equals more usable tracks.

Second off it is better to Re-record than use the bounce feature. I just finished reading an article on this very subject. Every program has its own algoritham for bouncing audio, and these bounce processes are usually poor in there execution, leading to bad dither problems etc. I have personally seen this to be true. So your left with 2 simple solutions.

1. Use even more DSP (CPU Horsepower) to buss all the tracks to a new stereo pair within the applications own virtual mixer, and record a new mix down track, or...
2. Mix the signal externally, EQ, Effects, Live Input tracking, etc.
And return a stereo pair to an input track in the application.

By doing either of these we can manage to work around these week algorithams, and preserve control over our mixes, not letting some preprogrammed math tell us how our mix is going to sound.
 
As for the Delta 66. Good card but the Mackie's don't have S/PDIF outputs. Your best off going with a Digital Mixer. THere are several out there for around $500 or so. And most have at least some sort of MIDI Machine Control for Transport functions (Play Rewind Record etc.)

Tex's setup is a good one. I have seen the Roland VM3100Pro in a studio pack for $600-$700 which includes the soundcard, cables, and custom version of Logic Audio. Turnkey systems are quite often the best way to go. Because your assured total intergration.
 
hmm

Ok its making more sense, sounds good. But why wouldn't you just eq with softwear? Ok, you made that point, it takes strain off the softwear and cpu, and is most likely better qualty. But in my case i eq and add effects with softwear cause i don't have external devices to do it. its more expensive to buy all the effects and eqing externally isn't it? i would look into purchasing them but, for me, its easier, and cheaper to use the softwear stuff. For instance, i get the drums, and i eq them, low pass filters, compression, reverb, etc.. all the effects i need, in softwear. And i do that to all the tracks, usually in logic. so if i was re-recording them from the computer - mixing board - comptuer, wouldn't the work already be done? I change the volume of each track in in logic, level it, get it sounding good, so why would i need to change the volume on the mixer? and how would you have it going from the comptuer to mixing board? In one signal? or have all 4 outputs from delta 44 going into the mackie, with seperate sounds on each, level and level them all individually, and then have one going back into the computer? so you mixdown the 4 into one? And currently im using all softwear for eqing, effects, etc... would it be recomended to do it another way? Im not questioning you guys, and im learning SO much. This is the most helpful thread ive every taken part in and im just trying to get the most info out of it. I don't know anything about this, and im very seriously about leanring. So when you say eq the tracks coming into the mixer, just use the 3 eqping things on the 1402? or are you talking about using an external eqing device, and external effects. if so, how would i attach them to the mixer and use them with the signals coming from the comptuer? Im sorry, lot of questions jumbled in there but if they could be answered id apriciate it.
 
It's all in the mixer. Even this could work for you, although I'll stop a moment. You don't have any outboard gear, and if you are satisified with the EQ you get in your PC, than these Digital mixers will serve you as nothing more than real actual faders and knobs that transmit MIDI MAchine Control data to Logic. This gives you at least better control over your Logic Mixer, because your controlling the software with real controls instead of dragging a mouse around.

You could take for example only the guitar tracks and route them through an external mixer (While routing all the other tracks entirely within the computer). From there the signal would run through the effects send and return busses on the mixer, giving you access to any effect you want to buy, such as a guitar distortion pedal, or a piece of rack gear (Cause lets face it, there are not a whole lot of good Distortion plugins out there, although I'm getting fond of my new WARP VST). Send the new tracks back to the computer, and now mute the originals (but keep them so you can remix if need be). Now try routing the bass out to the mixer which is now plugged into the brand new BASS POD that your bass player might have just bought or something.

And why do I think of this just now. Recording into the computer through a mixer in the first place is better than just plugging into the sound card, because most mixers offer better preamps for vocals (MAckie PReamps are great). Plus I'd say pick up a decent compressor. Running your live signal into the mixer using a REAL compressor/limiter will severely limit the possibilities of clipping the soundcards digital converters (not a pretty sound). Logics compressors are USELESS here. They only offer you control of the audio after it is recorded. You may find that getting a good sound into the computer in the first place will absolutely minimize the EQ'ing and Compressing needed to get a great sound. This leads me to one of my favorite sayings "Garbage In, Garbage Out". You should never have to "Fix It In The Mix". Get a good sound from the beginning (Not saying you don't have a good sound, but I BET YOU, the warmth analog hardware can add would make a world of difference to your ears. I recommend a trip to the local music store. Ask to plugin to some hardware, and you'll see what I'm sayin.
 
hmm

yea man, i was thinking about getting a compressor, so that i could get a clear signal without clipping. Ive had problems with that using an art preamp into my sblive. But yea, i haven't bought this stuff yet, so i don't know a lot of the technical terms. But ya, i was buying the mackie board, probably the 1402, or maybe the 1202 if i don't need the sliders, for the preamps basically. just to run the mics into that, then into my computer (probably a delta 44). I was just confused what the purpose was in sending tracks from comptuer-mixer-computer, and still am confused. i guess it would give them a different sound, from the mixer. But actually what i would do to the tracks is beyond me. they say that bouncing is bad. so that makes a lot of sense. that your basically just manually bouncing multiple tracks into one. To take a load of the cpu, instead of processing 4 tracks with effects, just one track with no effects running, cause they're recorded in the track. So, you guys wouldn't eq and stuff in logic? you'd re-record it from the mixing board, with the equing on the mixing board, and any external effects boards i have (mixing down?)
 
buss

pc buss, buss, what are these busses again? Are they what i refer to as tracks? And we're talking about working with files that have already been recorded, correct? Wave files, on my computer, that i already recorded, that im mixing in the song. Just making sure your not talking about recording. And instead of eqing them in logic, just taking the recorded wave, and runing it through the mackie mixing board, using the eq on the mixing board, and a compressor if i have one, and any other effects, then back into the computer. so the track will be recorded with the effects on it. Is this also including the effects ive placed on the track in Logic? So if i have say, platinum reverb, and eqing effects running on my vocal track in logic, i can recorded it though the mackie, back into the computer. And that way logic won't have to use the dsp to run those effects, because they will be in the recording? Similar to bouncing a track with multiple effects from logic, into one file, so that logic doens't have to run the effects? And i can always keep the tracks, with the effects muted as you said before, just incase i want to change them at all, and then re record them? It seems to make more sense now, from what im describing here, but i don't know if im right. So its just a better way of bouncing tracks, with the ability to change volume levels, eq, and add effects externally?
 
Your getting the hang of it.

I think your missing the old school way of mixing. You had a multi track recorder with every channel hooked up to a mixer. You added all effects and EQ and everything through the mixer because that was the only way to do it.

Since the ultimate goal was a 2 track stereo recording you would take your master buss (output) and record that on a high quality 2 track recorder.

DAW's have blurred the lines between a simple recorder and mixer. What we are talking about is using your computer primarily as a simple recorder and not a fancy mixer. The less your computer has to work the better it can do the jobs it is tasked to do.

Your DAW will have anywhere from 24-128 "channels". But your soundcard has a limited amount of outputs or "busses". A buss is a technical term for output. An analog mixer has a certain amount of busses. The amount of busses generally determines the amount of tracks that you could discreetly record. There are other ways around that limitation but that is a general way of gauging the size and usefullness of a mixer.

In a mixer or DAW you assign tracks to one of your busses. You may assign all your tracks to different busses. Each track would have it's own volume set relative to the other tracks that are sent to that buss. For example you could mix your drums and then send them all to 2 busses for a stereo submix. Then when you want to raise or lower the entire drum volume you just adjust the volume on that buss.

I use the computer as a simple recorder and sometimes use plug in effects. I assign my channels to the 8 busses on my soundcard and apply EQ and more effects thru my mixer to those 8 discreet channels. I then assign those 8 channels to my master buss and I record the output of the master buss back onto a stereo track in Logic.

The final stereo track is my Mixdown. That is the file that I would then Master and prepare to burn to a CD.

That is the way I work and there is no one way to do things. It's just good to know the different options that are available. I like to be very flexible in the types of recording I can do and I am also a semi-pro so I need my work to stand up to professional standards and this type of system works well for me.
 
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