Does more tracks = Lush recordings? Whats the trick?

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daled

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Im just curious as to what makes a recording like the Smashing Pumpkins Siamese Dream sound so lush and full - and what I can do in a homerecording situation to achieve this type of sound? Im often at a loss after recording a few different guitar tracks and adding a few fills and stuff cause the recordings still sound 'bare' and somewhat uninteresting. So whats the trick? Filling many more tracks w/ guitar, strings, noise, ambient textures? Also I dont want to make the overall mix muddy by adding too many needless overdubs... Is there some sort of recipe for this sort of overal sound?
 
Post something we can hear, and post your equipment, start to finish...
 
daled said:
Im just curious as to what makes a recording like the Smashing Pumpkins Siamese Dream sound so lush and full - and what I can do in a homerecording situation to achieve this type of sound? Im often at a loss after recording a few different guitar tracks and adding a few fills and stuff cause the recordings still sound 'bare' and somewhat uninteresting. So whats the trick? Filling many more tracks w/ guitar, strings, noise, ambient textures? Also I dont want to make the overall mix muddy by adding too many needless overdubs... Is there some sort of recipe for this sort of overal sound?
Click to expand...

Wow, you might also post some of your opinions on what IS lush and full to YOU. I have always found the Pumpkin albums to be very noisy and muddy. (MY opinion.) So, when you use them as an analogy I almost cannot tell what you really want. :) What other albums do you think sound full?
 
Being a good producer will help. Know when, where and why to embellish certain parts of a song, with any little inflections you think need to be put in.

Isaiah
 
Certain instruments you can record to 2 or more tracks to obtain
a fuller sound. Such as recording guitar to track 1 dry and git on track 2 with some 'verb and .5ms delay both panned in opposite
directions can provide a wider array of sound for the recorded git
tracks.
 
what i meant is...

What I meant by refering to the Smashing Pumpkins recordings is more like how do I get a "full" sound (maybe 'lush' was a bad term cause I do agree that some pumpkins recordings are muddy)? Im just wondering how to get a 'fuller' sound than just two panned guitars, bass, drums and vox. I think im going to try to get into adding some midi orchestration/ textural flavoring... maybe thats what im looking for? I actually think this has more to do with production than recording technique though...
 
Re: what i meant is...

daled said:
I actually think this has more to do with production than recording technique though...
Click to expand...

Actually, they should go hand in hand. The BIG sound you are looking for is achieved by 'filling' the whole spectrum. By spectrum I mean this: Take your mixdowns a play them back where you can look at a moving graphic eq. Now, watch your mix. Does it dance around the entire frequency spectrum? Or is it lacking in areas? Now, from there you can use a parametric EQ to see what sound is in the area where you are lacking. Then you can either boost and try to bring those tones out or you can look into adding more instruments to fill that void.

I can imagine to some that this might seem a lame approach to things but this has always proved valuable to me. And it seems so simple.
 
Another band whose recordings Id like to 'emulate' production-wise is Radiohead. If you listen to a radiohead album w/ headphones on you can hear something new everytime, some little ambient piece or texture deep in the mix. Im still trying to expirement with texturing like this without muddying up the mix... Its hard to come up with all these little things to compliment the greater work when usually most time is spent writing the bare-bones arrangement for the song...
 
Good luck.

Sorry, I had to say it. But you're aiming to emulate Butch Vig (I assume you mean Siamese Dream Pumpkins) and Nigel Godrich with Radiohead. Well, that's pretty tough. Go out and get yourself a ton of nice vintage gear, a bunch of synced 24-track tape machines, some incredibly talented songwriters, and ears of gold. Then it wouldn't hurt to have studio A at Abbey Road for a few months.

But seriously, Butch Vig and Billy Corgan used up to 100 guitar tracks at times on that album, it is very hard to do that without making an absolute mess of things, you have to know a crapload about eq and guitar amplification to even get beyond 10 or so without everything just disappearing. My best advice is that you practice a lot, mix a lot, and eventually you will start to get more of the result you want. But trying to emulate multi-platinum-album-level mixing/mastering right off the bat will kill you early.

P.S. I'd be happy just to emulate the level of songwriting on Siamese Dream or OK Computer for even ONE song, never mind the production.
 
Well put, Charger.

I disagree though, I think the songwriting on those records is much more approachable than the production. The guitar sound on siamese dream is about as big, thick and lush as guitar sounds get. Youre headed in the right direction, daled. Siamese dream can be what you aim for but the likelihood of you gettng that is not very good if your rack looks anything like the typical rack and guitar collection on this board.

Also, a major part of why commercial records have a commercial sound-- aside from great mixing where each instrument and vocal occupies its own space-- is compression. I assume your mixing on a DAW -- get all waves compressors-- the renaissance 1 and 2 comps, the L1, etc . Siamese dream is very compressed. That wall of guitar sound is legendary....its not just something that caught your ear that nobody else noticed. The guitars are also very tonal and are very represented in all parts of the spectrum from the low mids bet 350-500 and the mid mids 1k-3k. I have also gotten good results by working with a spatial enhancer (waves' stereoimager is good and cool edit has an expander that really opens up a track.)
 
BIG MUFF!!!

If your looking for Corgan's dirty guitar sound its starts with the BIG MUFF. He uses it on just about every song . Electro harmonix makes it. The american version is around 70 bucks and the russian one is about 50. MY fav distortions pedal in the world. It produces the fatest most bloated distortion but with lost of warm tone. This is not a dry pedal at all. It has been indespensible for me. Try it out you'll love it.
 
this is a great thread. I agree that album (siamese dreams) has beautiful guitar sounds. It is breathtaking if you take a moment to listen.


how about recording multiple takes using different tones! I definitely hear that in that recording. Those mutliple takes could vary in amount of compression and eqing then using a spectrum analyzer you could use those various 'sounds' to full out the spectrum.

Some reverb could help create a less sterile sound and give you a more 'lush' final product. Hopefully you are using decent preamps. I dont think you have to have top of the line pres but you need something decent for sure.

anyhow that is what I would try if I was going to attempt to approach that type of production
 
Here's the story on SD -

I heard how Billy Corgan would play guitar in the studio while Butch Vig tried placing the mic around the guitar cab while recording Siamese Dream.

Once Billy heard the sound he liked, he signaled Butch to stop and come back in.

To do this, Butch had to wear those earmuffs that AIR GROUND crews wear at airport to avoid hearing damage at the decibel level of an airplane.....those amps were so loud...He said he couldn't hear it, but he actually felt it pretty well.
 
If you watch viewphoria, their video, they mention this piece of gear they say they use alot. I don't remeber what it was called. Yeah, Siamese Dream is definatly not a DIed album.....................
 
Re: Here's the story on SD -

ruebarb said:
To do this, Butch had to wear those earmuffs that AIR GROUND crews wear at airport to avoid hearing damage at the decibel level of an airplane
Click to expand...

yeah I remember that issue of guitar world.


he also said he would turn the amps on with no guitar going through it but at the plying volume so he had some white noise palying back on his headphones. then he would move the mike he was using till he heard the best signal of white noise and then leave it there.
 
Some guy said it earlier in the thread here. Play with compression some to try and get a fuller sound. I don't like to compress durring recording, but at mixdown I use it at least a little bit on pretty much every track. Heck, some live recordings I've done I can "fill" a song right up with just two guitars, vocals, drums and bass.
 
I absolutely love the guitar sounds on Siamese Dream...it changed my entire perspective on guitar sounds. I remember reading an article with Billy about the album and he said that there were an ungodly amount of guitar tracks. He seemed to be a big fan of the E-bow too...putting string-like stuff in the background. Compression definately played a part in the sound.

Another album that I recommend with a somewhat similar guitar sound is My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless." Similar sound but with a throbbing, pulsating kinda thing going on. The interviews I read with Kevin DeShields? were totally insane...they built tents with amps facing each other and he constantly moves the whammy bar to throw it out of tune, but after you pile up some tracks it somehow goes together.

Just so you know, I'm still struggling to get a decent distorted guitar sound that I'm happy with...Just thought I'd recommend MBV for inspirational purposes.

BTW...there's an interview with the dude from MBV in the last edition of TapeOp that is pretty good...he comments on what they used to get some of the sounds that they did. If you don't subscribe to TapeOp, I'd highly recommend it. They give honest reviews from people that have actually used the product and they have some of the most candid interviews with recording types that I've ever read... There's no "Let me plug this thing because I've got an endorsement deal with them" kinda stuff going on. They're totally honest and that's something that's hard to find in most recording mags.
 
OK this question isnt that hard to help him with people!!

OK!!! let me tell you how they get that fat ass full sound that knocks your heart of beat!!! THEY LAYER!!!! and there is endless ways of doing this!!!
One way is to record micing your amp on the left side and then record again on the right, and if that is not full enough you may want to record another part in the middle or again on the left and the right with the mic further away from the amp.

Here is another technique and I love this one quite well, if you can, mic your amp and have your preamp or stompbox plugged in directly to your mixer at the same time, have the mic on the left and the direct on the right at the same time then record, then take two more tracks and reverse the situation direct on the left and mic on the right then record again, keep the direct lower though and it will sound full and balanced.

another technique that GODSMACK uses is they record left then record right then they do it again but they mic a small amp.
 
the road to matching the sound of commercially recorded albums at home, especially those listed,is long and expensive......right off the bat, make sure you have at least an sm57, a killer condenser, at least one killer preamp, and at least one killer compressor, and an awesome multieffects unit or plugin package.....
 
and dont forget quality cables/wires.....good sounding room.....great songs and arrangements....a great recording medium...accurate monitors......

all of the previous advice is awesome.....but if your recording chain sucks, 6 suck ass sounding tracks wont sound lush....it will sound like junk......
 
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