Acoustic recording tips

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sprocket87

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Hey everyone, big time recording newb here, lookin for a few tips.

A friend and I are working on recording some acoustic songs with vocals. I'm using a Seagull S6+CW GT QII Cedar acoustic/electric guitar (http://www.seagullguitars.com/products6+cwcedargt.htm) that has two built-in pickups: one piezo under the bridge and a microphone positioned under the soundhole. The signals can be mixed as well I believe, though I haven't gotten all the electronics figured out yet.

We're running everything into a Boss BR-532 4 track digital recorder with basic modeling effects (COSM engine). For vocals we have a cheap Radio Shack dynamic microphone. (Nice outfit we got, huh?)

So anyway, we're workin on doing basic recording, nothin professional-grade or anything (obviously), as we're poor and have nothing that good to work with. The vocals actually record okay - not a problem. But the guitar is a different story. I love the sound of this acoustic while playing it unplugged or unrecorded or whatever, just playing it. But it all changes when we try to record.

I was hoping to get a few tips for how to achieve the best results with what we have. The recordings we have made are less than stellar; I can't seem to achieve a very good sound for my acoustic recorded - it sounds alright but nothing like the guitar itself does UNrecorded.

I know this is mostly because we're not doing it right by mic-ing the acoustic or an acoustic amp, but those things are pretty expensive (I think). So I'm having to really tweak my onboard electronics plus the COSM effects in the Boss to get a decent sound. And even those effects sound sort of cheap to me.

I read somewhere that piezo and other built in acoustic electronics are for live performance and sound horrible for studio recording. Is this true? If so, what are my options, without spending hundreds of dollars? And what can I do with what I have to get a better sound out of my guitar recorded?

Sorry for the long post, but I thought I might get some pointers from you helpful folks.

Thanks a lot!

-Jesse King-
 
sprocket87 said:
I read somewhere that piezo and other built in acoustic electronics are for live performance and sound horrible for studio recording. Is this true? If so, what are my options, without spending hundreds of dollars? And what can I do with what I have to get a better sound out of my guitar recorded?
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This VERY true. You need a condensor mic (ECM-8000, MXL-603, MC-012, etc). These mics also require phantom power which your recorder may not provide, in which case you'd need a mic preamp that will put it out or a power combiner.
 
yeap, Track Rat's Right. Get 2 Marshall MXL 603s at www.8thstreet.com for $149 bucks. Put one at the 12-15th fret and the other just below the sound hole (not under it. Next to the back of the guitar.) and then make sure that they both are the same distance from the guitar with each other, so u will not have any phasing. Then if u can, run that through a pre-amp (art works well)

good luck

zeke
 
an audio buddy sounds pretty good too, and you get two preamps for 80 bucks.
 
Hey, thanks for the quick and friendly replies everyone.

So basically, to get any decent results I have to use acoustic mics? Thats too bad, I'm rather broke at the moment, but we'll see what future days bring.

What's "phantom power"? And whats an audio buddy? If I had to get something cheaper than those Marshall MXL 603s, what would you recommend? And how necissary is two condensor mics compared to one?

Thanks again for all your help!

-Jesse-
 
Like Tack Rat said, one of these will work well. I assume the Boss has phantom power.
 
hmmm

zeke - it really shouldnt matter the distance of the two mics on the accoustic guitar if you record with A/B stereo like your talking about. Even if its not meant to be A/B stereo. Just because being that far apart it will mean that the frequencies of the neck will hit the mic below the sound whole later then the one by the 16th fret. Thats how the stereo imaging is created when doing A/B stereo micing. Not trying to bash on yah just was gonna let you know. The more important part would be to position the mics where they sound best. As far as art preamps i dont have anything to say about it because i have never used one before.

Go for the ECM8000 if your low on cash and you really dont need two. $35 bucks you cant get much better.

Danny
 
Hmm okay, thanks again for the info. Yes that Behringer ECM8000 is more up my alley, $35 is doable. But just out of curiousity, the description of that mic doesn't mention it being used for an acoustic guitar type situation - more of measuring room acoustics for PA setup. Does that simply mean its more-than-capable of doing acoustic recording? I trust that you've recommended a capable microphone, but again I was just curious :)

But what about positioning for one mic, and that one in particular?
 
This is a pretty good mic for close-micing acoustic guitar. It has a flat frequency reponse and, because it is an omni, you can place it fairly close to the soundhole without the boomy proximity effect. I would start with the mic about 12" out from the neck joint angled slightly toward the soundhole.

A drawback of this mic (and all small condenser mics) is that because the diaphragms are small their self noise is higher than larger mics. This hasn't presented a problem for me, but for some it has.

IMO, in your price range nothing else will come close to the quality you will get with the EMC8000.
 
Mr Sprock

I WOULDN'T assume that your recorder has phantom power - they're pretty much starter units. If it does have phantom power then there's gonna be a switch on the back near the inputs saying "Phantom Power". Without that, your condenser microphone is useless, you'll have to by a phantom power unit or baby mixer as well.

I had a quick squiz on the net and I don't see phantom power listed as a feature for this puppy - can't find a picture of the inputs to confirm for you - but I saw that it has a balanced XLR input for a condenser microphone, which is good, as well as a guitar input - no mention of phantom power though - have a look through your manual.

It also said that it has a BUILT IN condenser microphone just for recording acoustic guitars, so maybe try that first - might be half decent, you never know.

So anyway, if you can't buy one because of the cost of the phantom power, assuming it's needed, and the inbuilt one doesn't work for you, you're left with the pickup - you can get decent-ish results from this, depending on the pickup itself - one thing you could try is to actually plug it into an amp (if youhave one?) and mic the amp with your Radio Shack or the inbuilt condenser (not too loud though!).

Just work with it and I'm sure you'll get something OK - better than you might think, anyway.

Good luck!
 
Yo sprocket- Simply admit that you have to record the guitar and vocals separately. Try the RS mic about 6" from the 12th fret and slide it up and down the neck until you get your best sound. Then record the vocals on a separate track with the same mic. I know it's hard to learn to play without singing, but you can do it, and it will make you a better recording artist. Good luck.-Richie
 
tdukex - thanks for the info on the behringer. looks like a good deal to me too :)

Armistice - you're right, my Boss doesn't have phantom power, I found that out last night myself after posting. But down the road I'm also planning getting a decent mixer as well (probably a middle-of-the-road Behringer with 4 mono and 2 stereo inputs) that supports phantom power (runs about $140, can't remember the model # at the moment). You're also right that it has a built in condensor mic on the Boss. I totally forgot about using that though! The last time I had tried it was to capture some drums we were laying down and the result was less than satisfying. Maybe I just wrote it off altogether back then, who knows. But yeah, I'll give that a try once again. Also, I don't have an acoustic amp, though when we get the mixer we're gonna get a basic PA sys too, because they're virtually the same thing (right?).

Richard Monroe - Yeah, I've come to the realization that we're gonna have to do things seperately for the moment, especially since we're using this basic 4-track recorder with 2 inputs. We've been doing seperate recording for everything so far. But I have also tried using the RS mic directly on the guitar as well; it sounded really bad. Maybe it was just positioning, but I tried it in several places, both lower (below the sound hole) and higher up the body and neck. Though I don't think I ever positioned it 6" away from the guitar. I can give it another shot though!

And just an update for everyone: We were trying to record some more last night, and again I couldn't get a good sound out of the acoustic. So we hooked up a $7 Emerson cassette tape recorder/AM/FM Radio and recorded us playing into that. It sounded great! Well, I mean, it captured the actual sound of the acoustic. The sound QUALITY was trash, obviously, but it was sort of neat - really raw. But that just got me even more excited about getting an actual mic for it :)

-Jesse-
 
Once you get a source of phantom power with two inputs, probably the best two-microphone deal for acoustic guitar is a pair of Oktava MK-012As, which are the MK-012s with only the cardioid-pattern capsule. If you press for it or watch the sales, you can get them for 2/$99.99 at Guitar Center. I just got a pair for that yesterday. I have to do more testing today, but they appear to be relatively well-matched and have no problems. The boards have no cold joints nor contamination.

Good examples are considered excellent acoustic guitar microphones, and are even used for that purpose by pro studios.

The Guitar Center Oktavas do seem to be improving in quality, though the fit and finish may still be a bit cobby.

A decent pair of these used properly will give you very nice acoustic results!

I understand that the ECM8000 is an excellent microphone for the price, but it is an omnidirectional, which can cause a lot of problems in less than ideal recording environments
 
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i think if you are so low on money, and want to spend nothing...you still have a chance to do so and get somewhat decent results.

whatever mic you use for doing your vox - you might as well try it out on your guitar. Record one track, pan it left a bit. Record the exact same track again (play the exact same thing again) - and pan it a right the same amount you panned the other one left.

see how that sounds, if you can live with it, then done - you dont need to spend money.

however, a condensor mic + nicer preamp will of course sound mass better.
 
Whoa!

I did some tests on these (see my post in the microphones forum) and found that at least at 440 A they are about perfectly matched.

Then I did some testing with an actual acoustic. To be honest, I've never really messed with recording acoustic as I'm an electric kinda guy, but I figured now that I had a pair of OK acoustic microphones I ought to give it a try.

It was instructive. An inch or a few degrees of angle in the microphone position can make a gigantic difference in the sound, from one guitar to the next, and I think the only way to find the "sweet spot" is to play while wearing headphones and someone gradually moves the microphone around until you hit "IT."

So...I doinked around until I found what I thought was a pretty fair sound - then I tried adding the other microphone. Amazing! It was like magic - 1+1=10.

Now I understand why people buy these in pairs.:D I knew this intellectually, but I hadn't demonstrated it to myself in the studio before.

Not bad for $99.99!
 
Hey again everyone, thanks for the continued suggestions, I'm taking them all into consideration and will keep trying them out!

Thanks!
-Jesse-
 
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