Outgrowing organised religion...

[TelePaul]

They now have a Gluten-free Eucharist. Which kinda puts an end to the concept of transubstantiation. Okay, that's a very pedantic argument - but it's one more bizarre teaching of the Catholic Church that, as an adult, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand.

On Saturday, I went to a special mass to mark the one year anniversary of the death of a friends father. That in itself had me thinking, because my friend and his family were the most amazing people you could meet. Though I think that's fairly normal - I think we all, at some stage, reflect and compare our lives to our peers, I think we compare the good and the bad.

The Homily - or Sermon, I suppose - was intended to justify the imbalance between the ideals of Christian faith (all the good stuff) with the reality of life, and maybe attempt to reconcile the too. The Priest concluded by reiterating an all-too-familiar, old-school damning notion of things, whereby God created people and people created the evil things in it - obesity, for example (his words, not mine).

I'm quite tired of organised religion - I'd consider myself spiritual and exposed to morality, ethics, fate and faith...but Christianity, specifically Catholicism, has just become too complex to be adopted and rationalised with as a means of directing my life.

 

[drossfile]

They now have a Gluten-free Eucharist. Which kinda puts an end to the concept of transubstantiation. Okay, that's a very pedantic argument - but it's one more bizarre teaching of the Catholic Church that, as an adult, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand.

On Saturday, I went to a special mass to mark the one year anniversary of the death of a friends father. That in itself had me thinking, because my friend and his family were the most amazing people you could meet. Though I think that's fairly normal - I think we all, at some stage, reflect and compare our lives to our peers, I think we compare the good and the bad.

The Homily - or Sermon, I suppose - was intended to justify the imbalance between the ideals of Christian faith (all the good stuff) with the reality of life, and maybe attempt to reconcile the too. The Priest concluded by reiterating an all-too-familiar, old-school damning notion of things, whereby God created people and people created the evil things in it - obesity, for example (his words, not mine).

I'm quite tired of organised religion - I'd consider myself spiritual and exposed to morality, ethics, fate and faith...but Christianity, specifically Catholicism, has just become too complex to be adopted and rationalised with as a means of directing my life.

it's unfortunate, but inevitable, that large organized bodies want to legislate and pigeonhole everything. it's even more unfortunate when those bodies pretend to be uncompromising while trying to maximize their audience by bowing to trends.

this isn't an indictment of any particular sect, because i think that the catholic church, as well as many others, find their doctrine through their own sincere biblical interpretation. it's just a commentary on the fallacy of human interpretation itself.

i am a christian myself, but i find that the bible itself will teach you more about the realities of life than anything.

there are a lot of people who just want to believe something, and there are others who need their faith to be a little more...critical. both types of people were created by God and are loved by Him. but for those of us who need something more than spoon-fed, feel-good faith, there are answers out there. those answers are harder to dissect, but they are there.

God looks at the heart. for those who sincerely are swept up in a spiritual ecstacy by things like "praise" choruses by michael w smith and fiery, simplistic sermons, God is praised. for those who approach things more intellectually and seek a more practical and analytical theology, God is praised.

i've had a lot of problems with a lot of churches, preachers, and believers. but it doesn't change the truth that they're all pursuing, no matter how lazily it seems they're going about it.

talk to God. read His Word. figure it out. it's all He asks of anyone. my life is full of mistakes and regrets and bad examples, but my faith is my anchor.

i hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[guitar zero]

In many ways I find myself going through the same critical analysis of "organized religion". Each year I find it less and less important in finding my moral compass, if you will. But I never did feel like being 'religious' in any way gained me anything. In some ways I found it comforting to be affirmed in my faith by gathering with others who shared the same beliefs. Now I find it more spiritual standing by a stream with my fishing pole, in awe of all that creation offers for those willing to sit up and take notice.

I believe as strongly today as I ever have that Jesus laid down his life for me. I just don't care as much for the 'show' that goes on at church on Sunday. The church today is many things, but it has ceased to be a community as it was long ago.

So I will continue to pray, give thanks and proclaim Jesus as Lord. I just don't do it in church that much any more. In some ways for me, that makes it more personal, as it should be.

So Tele, keep your faith, even if you dispense with all the ceremony and doctrine. Therein lies your salvation. IMHO

 

[rayc]

Sounds like the vicar is aiming to do cancer is a humanist construct inflicted by a lapse in spirituality or that War is Peace, Love is hate & Freedom is Slavery next week.
It's the danger of not having a script to follow, which is the downside of decentralisation and local self determination I suppose.
Did anyone else question the homily? I suppose it would've seemed churlish with the family there etc.

 

[TelePaul]

Did anyone else question the homily? I suppose it would've seemed churlish with the family there etc.

That's not how it works here...you sit and listen and try to make sense of it after the fact.

 

[blue4u]

We went 'round and 'round on this topic in this very forum months ago.

I came away with the conclusion that religion served a purpose throughout history but is becoming less and less relevant. The basic "moral code" is common to most civil societies now and science has answered many of the mysteries we once relied on the church to dispel for us. People have become more educated and by in large many are beginning to understand the differences between myth, parable, and fact. Surprisingly, it has taken this long for those distinctions to emerge on a mass scale. But that is certainly happening.

It seems like we are in a sort of limbo now. The churches still have a lot of momentum and devout followers. What's fascinating to me is the way people continue to fight for their "faith" even as it becomes more and more outmoded. Faith is needed when further definition is not available. When the facts are present the "belief" should become obsolete. That has not been the case. It takes time to accept that the earth is not flat and we are not the center of the universe. There is a certain denial of science perpetuated by the churches but also a loyalty to their own conclusion which, in the face of the evidence for evolution and the like, I can respect.

The writing is on the wall but it takes time for things to move forward. While I don't see people abandoning their views of God per say I do see the churches of all faiths in an "evolve or die" situation. The more rigid and persistent they are about clinging to old belief structures the more people will dissent. There are smart people in religion who know this and will adjust accordingly. Look at how many adjustments and exceptions have been made in the last century alone! Today's Christianity is certainly very different from the one who burned witches at the stake and participated in the infamous Crusades.

There seems to be a basic need in most human beings to believe that they will continue as a soul and that there is a God watching out for them. To my mind, if it is true that we continue on when we die, then religions on the whole have oversimplified the matter greatly. I suppose this was to make it more mainstream and attractive to the masses. But consider that to say one can be "saved" by attending a church or adopting a belief system is insulting to the notion of a God which, as supreme being, would be more complex and intricate than to draw such harsh and lopsided conclusions. After all, this would be the God who created us to be exactly as we are. So would this same God banish its own creation as the possible outcome for allowing us this so-called "free choice"? It's the proverbial question that too few seem brave enough to ponder more deeply. If you go deep enough with that inquiry you might be surprised where it leads you

Logic is too often overshadowed by the want (even need) to believe that truth and purpose are concrete realities and not subject to relativity as science suggests. Religion does provide a right and a wrong way and this simplifies the world for those who seek that kind of comfort.

On the flip side, there are intellectual arguments for Christianity as well. C.S. Lewis is certainly worth a look for anyone grappling with the need to intellectually fill in the gaps so-to-speak.

I've yet to be convinced that religion is little more than humanity's need to make sense of the mysteriousness of life that we fear. Either way you go, it's a pickle!

Rich

 

[drossfile]

good posts here, all around.

two books you may want to check out:

"mere christianity" by (the aforementioned) cs lewis, and

"love your God with all your mind" by jp moreland.

 

[guitar zero]

good posts here, all around.

two books you may want to check out:

"mere christianity" by (the aforementioned) cs lewis, and

"love your God with all your mind" by jp moreland.

Mere Christianity was the book I read in high school that "filled in the intellectual gaps" for me. It's also the book that had the biggest impact on my wife of 30 years now.

 

[WhiteStrat]

Mere Christianity was the book I read in high school that "filled in the intellectual gaps" for me. It's also the book that had the biggest impact on my wife of 30 years now.

+1 for that (and anything by C.S. Lewis). For a wonderful picture of God (& the Trinity) outside of church, check out "The Shack" by William Young. It's fiction, but if I recall correctly, Jesus himself loved to tell stories. I just read it last week and it was like a tall cold drink of life in a dry desert of religion...

 

[guitar zero]

+1 for that (and anything by C.S. Lewis). For a wonderful picture of God (& the Trinity) outside of church, check out "The Shack" by William Young. It's fiction, but if I recall correctly, Jesus himself loved to tell stories. I just read it last week and it was like a tall cold drink of life in a dry desert of religion...

So I'm sitting here in my Arizona B & B and I ask my wife if she's heard of "The Shack"? And she hands me a copy that's sitting here on her bedside stand. So I'll be reading it on the plane ride home.

 

[WhiteStrat]

So I'm sitting here in my Arizona B & B and I ask my wife if she's heard of "The Shack"? And she hands me a copy that's sitting here on her bedside stand. So I'll be reading it on the plane ride home.

Sweet...let me know what you think of it.

 

[guitar zero]

Sweet...let me know what you think of it.

Will do. After adding characters

 

[THX1136]

Catholicism isn't Christianity.

 

[true-eurt]

I'm quite tired of organised religion - I'd consider myself spiritual and exposed to morality, ethics, fate and faith...but Christianity, specifically Catholicism, has just become too complex to be adopted and rationalised with as a means of directing my life.

I must admit, I am not an eloquent writer, speaker OR a well studied Theologian....but I have my own experiences with God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Angels, Satan, demons... and the blessings and curses that come respectively when we embrace either in our lives....Christianity, in man's interpretation, has been a stronghold in my life and a stumbling block.

Only you can direct your life.

Although, "let god lead you", is a much abused phrase, it is only you, who can make those decisions...not even God decides those things for us..he has laid the foundation...presented the facts for us by means of written and spoken words with the Holy Spirit to interpret for us if we allow...we all have the knowledge of good and evil ....and depending on our environment of sociology, the tools to sort out the weeds from the flowers(we sometimes have to search outside of our own little garden shed to find those tools)...and seek out wisdom, on how to nurture and harvest those things we most desire in our lives...no matter how long it takes us.

We soon learn in life, that there ARE rewards and consequences for everything we say or do(even if you are an unbeliever)...or things you don't say or do for that matter.

Paths and choices are provided at every turn in our life...although some choose to be a prisoner of self-inflicted abuse, wearing a cloak of misery and suffering, withholding some of the most beautiful aspects of life from themselves...choosing to impose upon themselves and others a law which they cannot keep...there is such freedom in God's love....why, oh why do we insist upon making it an affair of bondage..?..taking upon ourselves organized crap that abuses the joy in freedom that Jesus gave us....refusing to let go of mistakes God has already forgotten...pigeonholing others with shame for their mistakes...our belief is all an option...God has given us freewill and capability to think for ourselves...and one thing is for sure...the human-being will consistently return to his own vomit...why they just didn't say it that way in the bible, I don't know...maybe dog was a kinder descriptive...

I, being as guilty of the next person of all offenses. Why his mercy continually stretches out upon me...is definitely beyond my own comprehension of love.

...and yah, I also believe in the Devil and do personally believe, his specialty is setting snares of deceitfulness and playing lullabys of doubt. He is a great oppressor of the spirit...a distorter of truth...a robber of joy....and an instigator of dissension...yes, I am very familiar with him(Satan) and his negative effect on our lives...but I am even more so familiar with Jesus and the positive of his love..I've spent too many years under his mercy, compassion and forgiveness to let my *evil* ways(whatever they may be...as simple as *gluten* consumption or complex as *questioning* of theory)...man's finger pointing and Satan's accusations cannot steal from me what is mine...a perfect love in an imperfect world....

I am still ever searching...ever asking...ever falling on my face...and still...He is the only one who truly *knows* my heart and still loves me...

talk to God. read His Word. figure it out. it's all He asks of anyone. my life is full of mistakes and regrets and bad examples, but my faith is my anchor.

This says it all...simply put and in layman terms...I couldn't have said it better....and you used a lot less words...

 

[suprstar]

Spirituality and religion are totally separate. I consider myself spiritual, but I'm not a fan of organized religion AT ALL! I think most religions kinda try to lead to the same place - spiritual contentment, peace/zen, whatever you wanna call it. I dont agree completely with any one religion, but I do like bits and pieces from most.

On the other end of the spectrum, my wife and I know a couple who are self proclaimed born again christians - They're swingers, stoners, thieves, backstabbers, and dont give a shit about shit... Totally immoral by all accounts, but they can do all that cuz they are 'saved', they have their ticket to heaven.. LOL.... Religion without spirituality, what's the point? Fuckin hypocrites..

Talk is cheap, labels are worthless, how you think, how you act towards other ppl, what you feel, THATS what counts.

 

[WhiteStrat]

...I am not an eloquent writer, speaker OR a well studied Theologian....

...Paths and choices are provided at every turn in our life...although some choose to be a prisoner of self-inflicted abuse, wearing a cloak of misery and suffering, withholding some of the most beautiful aspects of life from themselves...choosing to impose upon themselves and others a law which they cannot keep...there is such freedom in God's love....why, oh why do we insist upon making it an affair of bondage..?..taking upon ourselves organized crap that abuses the joy in freedom that Jesus gave us....refusing to let go of mistakes God has already forgotten...pigeonholing others with shame for their mistakes...our belief is all an option...God has given us freewill and capability to think for ourselves...and one thing is for sure...the human-being will consistently return to his own vomit...why they just didn't say it that way in the bible, I don't know...maybe dog was a kinder descriptive...

I, being as guilty of the next person of all offenses. Why his mercy continually stretches out upon me...is definitely beyond my own comprehension of love.

...and yah, I also believe in the Devil and do personally believe, his specialty is setting snares of deceitfulness and playing lullabys of doubt. He is a great oppressor of the spirit...a distorter of truth...a robber of joy....and an instigator of dissension...yes, I am very familiar with him(Satan) and his negative effect on our lives...but I am even more so familiar with Jesus and the positive of his love..I've spent too many years under his mercy, compassion and forgiveness to let my *evil* ways(whatever they may be...as simple as *gluten* consumption or complex as *questioning* of theory)...man's finger pointing and Satan's accusations cannot steal from me what is mine...a perfect love in an imperfect world....

I am still ever searching...ever asking...ever falling on my face...and still...He is the only one who truly *knows* my heart and still loves me...

I chopped up your post to make a point. The bold part at the top? B.S. You spoke the truth both eloquently and profoundly. Wonderful, thanks!

 

[Xeries]

Yeah, I can relate to what True said, too. It makes me wonder if Jesus were alive, what would he feel about some of the strict religious practices that turn a lot of us off.

I am a very spiritual person; however, many people would say that I'm not religious because, although I go to church every Sunday, it is a non-denominational church.

We are Ex-Catholics, Ex-Methodists Ex-Baptists, Ex-Buddhists, you name it.

The only reason it should be regarded as organized religion is that we meet at the same time every Sunday. That's pretty damned organized, isn't it.

But the reason I go to church is not for it's organization or lack thereof.

It is to be reminded where I can find guidance in the Bible.

There is evil in the world and if you don't believe it, then I am sorry for you. You are easy picken's as they say for the bad stuff.

Ephesians tells us that we need to recognize evil and not just say, Oh, it can't hurt me because I'm good, or I don't believe in it. That's crap.

You have five elements of the armour of God. I recommend you use them.

They're in Ephesians. These little reminders on Sunday have saved my life more than once.

But the bottom line is, I go to church to be reminded not to be an asshole.

I need a little help, so that's where I go for it. Not because it's organized.

 

[guitar zero]

On the other end of the spectrum, my wife and I know a couple who are self proclaimed born again christians - They're swingers, stoners, thieves, backstabbers, and dont give a shit about shit... Totally immoral by all accounts, but they can do all that cuz they are 'saved', they have their ticket to heaven.. LOL.... Religion without spirituality, what's the point? Fuckin hypocrites..

Talk is cheap, labels are worthless, how you think, how you act towards other ppl, what you feel, THATS what counts.

If you want to know about the character of God, look no further than the life of Jesus. Don't waste time looking at his followers. They will always let you down, even the good ones, eventually.

 

[suprstar]

If you want to know about the character of God, look no further than the life of Jesus. Don't waste time looking at his followers. They will always let you down, even the good ones, eventually.

Yeah, tell me about it! I'd expect them to let me down, after all, man is inherently sinful. (thus sayeth the bible) There was a quote I heard a while ago, I don't remember it verbatim, but it was someone following an eastern religion who said something like 'I embrace your christ, however, christians are nothing like your christ.'

edit:

Found the actual quote:

"I like your christ. I don't like your christians. They are so unlike your christ." - Ghandi

 

[blue4u]

I love Ghandi's quote there. Jesus was a blasphemer and an outcast in his own time. He was born a Jew and dissented from that faith to find God in his own way. In effect, one should ask themselves...If Jesus were alive today would he be a Christian? Given the scriptures we were given I think a fair answer is, probably not. To "follow" Jesus is a bit of a misnomer if you consider that he said over and over to "seek the kingdom of heaven within". What we have in religions (IMO) are too many people following too many things. I think the Gnostic Christians had it figured out best. Look within, be still and know that I am God. The rest is fodder and confusion for the mind. We are all unique so it is senseless to follow one another around looking for truth.

I believe in both, God and the devil because I've met them both inside of me. What I don't believe in are the mythical abstractions that all religious books offer as a picture of what God is and isn't. That's a personal matter that I feel people should resolve in their own hearts. As I said before, if God exists then God is much more than what can be reduced into pictures, words and rituals. Many people are content to stop at their own faith and feeling for God. I demand more because if God is worthy then I will find and know the truth FULLY in my own way.

The concept of "free will" is one of the greatest myths. Look into it and you might see what I mean. For every freedom you think you have you will find thousands of things that imprison you. Are you free to breathe or not? Free to eat or not eat? Free to not see the world you see? Go within and look deeper and suddenly you realize that this life has quite little to do with freedom and more to do with the option to surrender or fight against what is. Then you may get a great surprise when you realize that it takes MORE courage and strength to surrender to what is as it is, in this moment. Can you be still without noise? Can you stop arguing with yourself in your head? Can you stop trying to be accepted and loved by others? The perpetual need for acknowledgment is another great block to spirit.

For the longest time I thought I "knew" things because of what I heard and read that sounded and/or felt good to me. But I hadn't experienced these things for myself. At best, I was parroting things to others that I had no real idea about. How is it that we trust our thoughts and feelings so easily when we know how misinterpreted and flawed everything is? Do you presume that the bible or any other religious book should be different? What these texts offer are quick and easy solutions. The damage they do is that they encourage people to stop their own personal search. It's hard to be alone with yourself and remain quiet (no TV, no books, no writing, just nothing). But there is magic there beyond restlessness and fear. Everyone has access to that and can prove it to themselves if they are willing.

Only silence holds truth for me. All words trace back to an original assumption and misunderstanding that feebly tries to define the undefinable.