Late arriving Musicians

witzendoz

Senior Member
I do the sound at a music club one night a week, usually close to $0 but because I believe in keeping this venue open I don't mind. It is a club where people come to listen not get drunk and talk. I get there a good 2 hrs before the show, so I can check the PA is working correctly, as I am not the only one using it through the week, and to get everything that is needed ready and checked. I can then take my time and relax and also fix any PA problems that may show up.

2 things are happening very regularly now:

First I get told things like I only need 1 mic and a DI for my guitar, only to find when they get there, oh some of my friends are playing so now I need 4 vocal mics, 3 DI's and mics for the drum kit. Oh and we have a cello with no pickup fitted:spank:.

Second (and this also applies to the acts above) we are say 5 mins out from show time and the first act rocks up (often complete with above instructions) and wants a sound check, two things, the room now has customers, and they are starting in a few mins anyway, remembering I have probably been sitting around for an hour with nothing to do.

This week took the cake, often when a second or third act has a drummer we try to have the drums set up before the first act (often a solo) starts. Well, the first act was very late, I am getting them on stage when the drummer rocks up from the second band. So its time to start the show and the drummer says he can keep setting up while the first acts is performing, which is very disrespectful. They then start arguing with me when I say no and tell them they are acting unprofessional, sigh! By the way did I say that the stage list for the second act did not say they had a drummer :facepalm:

Why is it that musicians do not act in a professional manner when given the chance to play a club where the audience is actually interested in what they do, run by people that actually care about them. This includes me, as I try to give them the absolute best sound I can. When I am playing a gig I turn up a good hour before to talk to the sound guy about what I/we would like, then if possible set up and sound check.

Alan.

P.S They wonder why I sometimes get grumpy. :mad:
 
It's not only musicians...

I've had a dance producer pull down the master fader on my desk whispering "wrong song"...

Then continuing in a loud voice "Oh, no! It's not". She was on time, but meddling with everything. And she hadn't a clue about the technical side of things. She had arranged for the small rock band to be UNDER the right side of the PA. Then she complained it wasn't loud enough, despite being clearly audible in the isolated control booth.

We all have to start somewhere, I guess. It was her first real production and she was nervous as hell.

After the gig, she complained to the owner of the venue, who had nothing to do with it.
 
Being paid doesn't matter. What you don't have is rules.

Are the bands and musicians getting paid? The ideal system is that you send out a request for resources required. They respond, you tell them what is possible and what is not and then give them a slot for arrival. Point out that there are multiple acts on, so these times are not negotiable once other times have been made av available to the other bands. You explain house rules. i.e. no other musicians allowed on stage setting up while another is playing. Clearly, some will tell you to stuff it. Especially if the money is low or missing. You have to work out if for end quality, you are better off without them.

Good house rules help everyone.

Musicians being musicians, they will always ask for extra mics, more space for a huge kit, and want things only a mindreader could know. My venue is pretty big - but these thing still happen. When we have multiple bands on, we ask all these questions and plan properly - and they STILL arrive with more people, or need a drum riser, or worse, ask for things then change them on arrival. Drum riser - minimum 6x6'. I give them a 8x8' riser and they complain it's too small. They ask for special lighting , which being a big venue we can do - we put up the 4 special lights for the band, and FIVE arrive.

What we do now is always assume their requests are a guide only. So we wire 4 vocal mics if they ask for 3, we have spare mics available to mic up the instrument the bass player brought instead of an electric bass. We guess the sax player will have a soprano, and a tenor, and have two mics. No monitors required means they think they don't want them. However, they will change their minds. I don't get cross any more - I just try to outguess them.

I do enforce the rules if one band are spoiling it for another, that's unforgivable - especially if everyone is one equal status. When I tour with my band, I try so hard to not do these things to other venues, but sometimes I feel my own requests must sound like the ones that annoy me so much.

When these people do stupid things, I try not to let it bother me any longer - they mean well, and they're mostly harmless. This is Douglas Adams 'mostly harmless'.
 
Newest one: short movie. No script, no rider, no date, no budget, no power...

It's a half day location gig. They hadn't even considered they might need power. Camera's run on batteries, don't they?

Of course, my rig can run on batteries. But these are heavy, so I don't usually take them with me.

Feels like I'm in education.
 
The ideal system is that you send out a request for resources required.

Ha Ha Ha, dream on, we are dealing with musicians.

It's only a small club, most are OK some just take the Pi55, the guy that books listens to me and if the act is a pain in the neck they don't come back. They rather loose the act than me.

We have a 15 min change over between acts and in most cases this is fine as most are solo duo. Thats why are like to know ahead if it's bigger so I can have mics DI's etc set up before the change over. I am a very organised person having done live sound for over 40 years, however I find musicians today are much worse and selfish than the older guys. Afetr all I am trying to make their sound as best as possible, which is somthing they forget. Maybe they are just used to crap sound and crap engineers.

Alan
 
What I mean is you send it out. If they don't respond, which as you say, they won't - you have the ammunition to say no gracefully, with tact and diplomacy, but still no - leaving them few options.

I've had one this morning. We MUST have black drapes. They say this every time they visit. I respond and say, they're blue. They say fine. Ten years ago they arrived for the first time and we'd hung a set of black drapes over our blue semi-permanent ones. They saw the blue and said - we'll use them, they're nice. This black blue thing has happened at least 20 times.
 
Back to the original heading LOL, I don't have a problem with whatever they want, all I ask is that they get there maybe an hour before the show and tell me, I usually set up some extra mics and DI's anyway. We have everything needed available due to there being a larger venue upstairs that has a full concert system in it. I am able to rob anything I need Microphones, DI's, cables, Stands, etc from the concert rig, which is not used the night I am in. I do get to mix shows on that system from time to time by the way, and these are paying gigs :)

I just don't understand musicians that turn up 5 mins before they go on, shoving through the punters with the gear and throwing it on the stage in a big heap, looks totally unprofessional. Why not get there with some time, sort out the gear and the set up and relax before the show?

Alan.
 
How a week can be so different,

First act turned up really early, wanted to use a large condenser (one of these, and it sounded great) and DI only, understood that monitors would not work due to low levels before feedback, just a tad of the DI. Good sound check, professional attitude.

Second & third acts turned up before the show started, introduced themselves, told me what was required, which was a minimum, all acts were very happy with the sound, non-stress gig.

The only extra was that the first act and third act were having a guest harmonica player, when they realised he was going to be in the audience, comes every week and sits with me LOL, but I was told before the show started and I actually have a mic for the harmonica set up every week as everyone wants him as a guest, I rate him as the best harp player I have ever heard.

Alan.
 
I honestly can't imagine arguing with a performer about anything. Like, come here and vent and whatever, but I come from a customer service background and I'm trained to find a way to say "yes" to my customer's requests. This sometimes does mean offering compromise or options that can get everybody where they need to be even if it doesn't fill the original specific request.

But honestly, if the drummer wants to set up behind the first act and that first act doesn't care... All that matters to anybody in the room is that the person in front of the mic gives a singular performance of compelling material. Like, if it's worth listening to (and the drummer is reasonably discrete - that's the tough one!), then nobody's gonna know the difference. I'm thinking that is less likely if they just got done arguing with the soundguy. Though I'd maybe see if we could find some sort of staging area where drummer can do their thing without being quite so obtrusive.

For the rest of it, maybe you should just lay out more than you need to begin with. If you've got the mics, cables, and channels available. Set up 4 vocals and a few DIs, some drum mics, do you ever mic guitar amps? Maybe you still have to adapt here and there. They'll always find ways to surprise you. "The enemy always gets a vote." But if you've got everything ready to cover a reasonably wide range of situations to begin with, you'll have less scrambling later.
 
I honestly can't imagine arguing with a performer about anything. Like, come here and vent and whatever, but I come from a customer service background and I'm trained to find a way to say "yes" to my customer's requests. This sometimes does mean offering compromise or options that can get everybody where they need to be even if it doesn't fill the original specific request.

You cannot say yes to everything as some things are disruptive to other performers and the audience who have paid money to see the show. The argument was from the performer when I said that it was not professional to be setting up during the first acts performance and being so late to the gig, maybe if they we not stoned as well there would have been more reason from them.

But honestly, if the drummer wants to set up behind the first act and that first act doesn't care... All that matters to anybody in the room is that the person in front of the mic gives a singular performance of compelling material. Like, if it's worth listening to (and the drummer is reasonably discrete - that's the tough one!), then nobody's gonna know the difference. I'm thinking that is less likely if they just got done arguing with the soundguy. Though I'd maybe see if we could find some sort of staging area where drummer can do their thing without being quite so obtrusive.

The first performer did very much mind, they were being bullied by the drummer to let them set up, when I said not set up in the break they carried on until the argument started and I told them No! This is a very small venue and a very small stage, the drummer setting up would have almost knocked over the first act, I agree a large venue with a deep stage may have been a different story. If the drummer had actually got there on time, which is stated by the booking guy there would have been no problem having the drums there. There is a staging area but he did not want to set up there and move the drums. So who was being unreasonable?

For the rest of it, maybe you should just lay out more than you need to begin with. If you've got the mics, cables, and channels available. Set up 4 vocals and a few DIs, some drum mics, do you ever mic guitar amps? Maybe you still have to adapt here and there. They'll always find ways to surprise you. "The enemy always gets a vote." But if you've got everything ready to cover a reasonably wide range of situations to begin with, you'll have less scrambling later.

[/QUOTE]

There is always extra cables, mics and DI's set up, but where do you stop? I even have a pencil condenser set up for when the performers acoustic guitar battery dies in the middle of the show, don't get me started on this.

I did not come here to vent, I came here to put a sound guys perspective to musicians going out to perform, I am very calm at live events, but I find this behaviour disrespectful to me but mostly the audience that have to put up with disruption to other acts and delays in the show. Don't forget I also can give the perspective as a performer as I actually play more gigs these days than I mix. I have been doing live sound for over 40 years and I take offence that you think this is a simple vent and that you think I am the one not being professional, I am full of compromise but some musicians are not.

Alan.
 
The audience is the ultimate customer. The house is the intermediary and the performer is tertiary in that arrangement, at least when it's a food and/or drink establishment. In a larger venue where the performer is pulling in a ticket-buying audience the venue needs to be more sensitive to their preferences, but it's still ultimately about the audience.
 
On the other hand, a home recordist always arrives in his studio precisely when he intends to :)
 
Having been on both sides of the situation,I have seen bands that show up late expressly to screw with the first band,take their time getting off the stage after soundchecking so that the first band has to set up after the doors have opened,and OTOH seeing the sound guy make the other bands sound like crap-no effects on vocals/vocals buried/etc.-until their friends go on.All of a sudden the mix is great and everything sounds good.It's pitiful that some bands do anything they can to make the other bands on the bill look bad to cover up their own inadequacies.
 
OTOH seeing the sound guy make the other bands sound like crap-no effects on vocals/vocals buried/etc.-until their friends go on.All of a sudden the mix is great and everything sounds good.

This, in my view, is always a risky strategy, and can backfire on the sound guy when he gets blamed (rightly in this case) for bad sound.
 
You guys wanna hears some craziness? Kind of off topic.. but meh.

I live in Seoul right now, and I play with a rock band.

It is totally standard.... everywhere in town, that the clubs just have a Backline and 2 Guitar halfstacks of their own. We don't bring amps or drums.
Everwhere we go... we just walk in at our timeslot... (complain that the other band isn't done yet)... then just plop our pedalboard on stage, grab our guitar, and plug into the local Marshall or Ampeg SVT. And just start.

If you need a soundcheck...bummer.
If you like your own amp- no one cares.

I Love it. It was weird to get used to.. but I love it now.
 
I didn't mean to offend. I can see where it came off as a bit of a lecture. Every situation is different. I wasn't there, and it's easy for me to sit here and do the "armchair quarterback" thing. :/ I guess maybe I wasn't even writing for the OP so much as maybe other less experienced folks coming through. Honestly, I think if you do reread the OP a little more objectively you might see where it sounds a bit like the typical old jaded soundguy rant. Maybe you're not that guy, but there are plenty of them out there, and I think it needs to stop. My job as engineer is to facilitate and reinforce a performance as best I can. Course, I'm also usually the closest thing there is to a stage manager, but really the end goal is still the same.

So, yeah, the ultimate customer is the butt in the seat. You might argue that the performer is more like a coworker. But we have this thing called the "internal customer" - basically all of your coworkers. We can often be slightly more casual with these folks, but we still have to be professional and mindful, respectful and responsive. And frankly, unless you own the place, you are kind of marketing your own self to everybody around you all the time. You have to sell yourself to the club manager, and you have to sell yourself to the performers. You want them to have a smooth and positive experience no matter how big of assholes they are. If they have a bad experience, the audience is more likely to have a bad experience, and then nobody wins. And if that ends up being your fault too many times...well there's plenty of other folks out there that could do it... ;)
 
I was actually writing this as a guide for performing musicians not to get there late. As a sound engineer I pride myself on giving every act the best possible sound that can be achieved with the gear available and the room acoustics. For me to do this the musicians themselves have to give me half a chance by getting there early and telling me what they need.

Because it's only a small club we usually only sound check the first act, unless the second act has gear that can be set up before hand, hence why all acts please get there early. We actually tell them that I am there 2 hours before the show starts so they can get there early to get gear in and tell me what they need. When the shows rolling there is a 15 min change over between acts and if I have channels ready to go the sound check only takes a few mins. Again if we have some fussy acoustic instruments in later acts I will set up spare channels with DI's and sound check them before the show starts, if they are there early, then they can just plug in during change over.

I know the PA and room very well so I am very quick at the sound check. Also the band bar is separate to the band room so 3/4 of the patrons shoot off to get a drink or go outside for a cigarette during change over, so we are not really bothering anyone.

I think part of the problem is that musicians are surprised when they get a sound person that actually cares as opposed to the ones that want to talk to their mates or play with their phone. I suppose musicians are getting used to unprofessional venues. We run a music club for performers when the patrons listen to the songs, especially the original compositions.

Alan.,
 
Ha Ha Ha, dream on, we are dealing with musicians.

It's only a small club, most are OK some just take the Pi55, the guy that books listens to me and if the act is a pain in the neck they don't come back. They rather loose the act than me.

We have a 15 min change over between acts and in most cases this is fine as most are solo duo. Thats why are like to know ahead if it's bigger so I can have mics DI's etc set up before the change over. I am a very organised person having done live sound for over 40 years, however I find musicians today are much worse and selfish than the older guys. Afetr all I am trying to make their sound as best as possible, which is somthing they forget. Maybe they are just used to crap sound and crap engineers.

Alan

I was in a duo and we were doing a lot of this sort of gig - 4 acts a night, etc. - mostly it was just someone with an acoustic guitar, but our duo had a more complicated set up - I had a looper with stereo outs t the PA as well as a vocal mic needing phantom power (don't ask!) and the other guy just had acoustic guitar and mic. I also had an impressively large two story pedal set up which actually just housed the looper and a multieffect, but it was a beast. And I had a separate mic stand and mic which fed into the looper. So, bit more complicated that hippy chick with Maton... :eek:

Despite this, we managed to get it all set up and broken down in the required time because we knew what we were doing and the sound guy/organiser knew what we were trying to do.

We'd be second or third, mainly third, and it was the OTHER musicians, without fail, who caused all the problems on the night - lateness and not having the right gear, or broken this and that, or no understanding of their own gear. Not all of them by any means - there were many people like us who did this regularly who were professional and had their act together - but some of them.... jeez - hopeless. And it just puts a drag on the night because the gaps between acts extended and people get bored waiting and this also puts pressure on the later performers because of the snowball effect.

A number of times I saw people absolutely flumoxed by the fact that their acoustic guitar pickup battery went flat. And god forbid anyone break a string...

Ah, frustrating, but mostly good, times...
 
Ugh... That is why I don't run live sound anymore (not that I did it often). It is hard enough to get a drummer to show up on time for recording session...
 
The last time I did live, it was with a brand new X32. I took some time to learn it before hand. And I was there when the PA was set up and soundchecks were done.

But then, the first artists performing, decided to move a pile of his equpment from a table at chest height to a low table, while connected. He was a strong bloke, cause he moved about 10 HE of gear in one go. It dropped with a bang. Needless to say his session was ruined.

The second performer came on. EVERYTHING in the X32 was clipping. Fixed it fast and the session went well.

Just shows that even with a careful setup, things can go wrong...
 
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